Issues with landlord

Pixie5740

Who did/does your brother pay his rent to?

How a tenancy can be ended is explained in the link I gave you earlier. If your brother is a landlord himself and thinks that notice is tied into the length of the tenancy that's worrying.

It's been asked a few times but not answered. Have you or your brother ever reported the disrepair to the landlord or the council? If you have no evidence of bringing the issues to the landlord or council how do you think you will successfully sue the landlord?

Orgazzz

Hi Pixie,

Thanks again!

He pays it directly to the landlord. Never missed a payment.

The notice period, as we understood it, is based upon years occupied. Forgive me if that information is wrong, but I am not well versed in these matters. We never had any formal agreement in place and were effetively doing him a favour by renting the property as it suited the needs of the business, which we both have a vested interest in.

The general condition of the property and lack of heating and hot water were pointed out to the landlord on many occasions who indicated that he would 'do something about it' but never did. In the end I demanded that we use our own guys to carry out the works, so at least we didn't have to face another winter freezing our backsides off if we left our bedrooms. He agreed to this and we managed to get some of the works done, before work pressures meant that the works were not entirely completed. I considered that this was actually doing him a favour, as is always typical of him, nothing ever gets done.

The issue with taking it further, ie reporting it to another authority, would be the 'fallout' it would cause with us being in business together, and my brother being and employee of the company.

Neither me or my brother wish to act in a manner that isn't appropriate. However we don't consider that the landlord has acted with a duty of care, by ensuring the property rented was fit for purpose. In addition, in my case, falsely claiming arrears which have been paid.

I understand that, in the eyes of the law, my brother could now be considered liable for the full rent of the property, but again don't consider this entirely fair. Initially the landlord gave me verbal notice that he had an offer on the property late last year. I informed him I would be out by Christmas and paid my rent up to that point. As he had previously had a buyer fall through, he indicated that this may happen again, but I had already found somewhere else to live. However my brother said he was happy to leave, but could he have notice in writing when the sale was confirmed. At this point the landlord stated he had already provided it and my brother had 'lost his copy'. My brother wasn't being difficult, but considered this behaviour to be worrying. Following this he recieved a letter from the solicitor with notice to evict and the claim for arrears.

I'm just trying to give you an overview of the situation. We have been model tenants. He hasn't even paid for the works himself. We have ever missed a rent payment. My brother has been subjected to lies, harassment and bullying in the workplace (something seperate from this I know but it is in relation to vacating the property) and we feel he has acted with either total disregard or incompetence in the role of a landlord.

In my brother's role as landlord he has always ensured that his tenant has been catered for in an appropriate manner. Any verbal issues have been dealt with promptly and to the tenants satisfaction, without the need to escalate.

I myself am now taking action against my business partner in a professional capacity, once again due to lies, incompetence etc, so the two matters are similar in context.

Apologies for the length of the post, just trying to give as much background as possible.

Many Thanks

Pixie5740

I will say this one more time, the length of notice required has nothing to do with length of tenancy. All the information you require about ending a tenancy is in the link I gave you back in post #3. Please read it and if there's anything you still don't understand after reading it come back for clarification.

saajan_12

Most of your posts about being in business and thinking you had a forever home are irrelevant and just complicate matters for those trying to help.

LL does have a duty to maintain a habitable property, but
- this has nothing to do with being in line with the rent
- the threshold for a property being uninhabitable is fairly high (you did have hot water through kettles, etc)
- How much of the issues were existing and how much was due to you starting works and not finishing? Can you prove you had permission?
- your remedy for the LL's failures here is to follow Shelter's process to report issues in writing and eventually withold rent DURING THE TENANCY. It is too late now that you have moved out (and indeed why would you stay until the LL requested the property back if if was that bad.

RENT: There are two possibilities here, you can't mix and match:
A/ You and brother were renting the entire property jointly and severally, so are liable for the full rent regardless of how many people are there. This is fair as the LL is still giving you / brother the use of the entire property. The day after you missed paying 2/3 of the rent for the third month, you were in arrears by a full 2 months rent and the LL could serve Section 8 notice, which they can take to court to get mandatory reposession. So even if you can prove no arrears until December, by now you are likely to be overdue enough rent to be served Section 8. If you served valid notice in December, then as brother stayed in the property, the LL could charge DOUBLE THE ENTIRE RENT as you failed to vacate.
B/ if you were each renting a room in a small HMO, then your brother isn’t liable for your rent. However then the LL had every right to be in the common areas at any time without notice. This doesn’t seem likely as were initially paying the full rent, indicating you were renting the entire property. You moved the brother in, as opposed to the LL picking someone.

It's too late for compensation once you move out, just focus on finding somewhere for brother to leave, give your own notice and move on just for sanity, and pay off the arrears.

Orgazzz

Hi Pixie,

Thanks for the reply.

I will read the document :-) Sorry and thanks for your patience!

Orgazzz

Hi Sajaan,

Thanks for your reply. I really do appreciate it!

Sorry if I didn't make this clear but neither myself or brother considered the property a forever home. It was convenient for the business and we were genuinely helping him and the business out by renting it as he would not have had much success doing so in the condition it was in.

He did indicate that he would address the heating from the outset, but this took 2 years to resolve and I took the lead in it. Permission was granted, although would it not be the case that we could effect repairs even if it wasn't given due to the fact that 2 years had now elapsed with no action on his part?

"You can start court action to claim compensation during your tenancy or up to 6 years after it ends."

I pulled that from Shelters website (thanks for the recommendation!).

We stayed in the property for the benefit of the company, as we all had a vested interest in it. It was convenient to use it for storage of materials (large plot of land) so the guys could come and go at all times of day etc. To be honest once he announced he was selling I was fine with moving out and was prepared to forego the issues I had put up with during the time I was there. However when he decided to serve notice on me and also to lie regarding rent owed my attitude has changed.

I left the property in December and my portion of the rent was fully paid up until that point, so not sure why I would be liable for anything as he is/was well aware of the fact. The back rent he is claiming on my part is false and I have the bank statements to verify this. No idea why he would lie about this as so easy to prove otherwise.

As for my brothers 'arrears' he would dispute that he was responsible for the whole tenancy as only paid £300 rent for the property. He would also argue that the landord had not approached him in any way to indicate that he should pay more rent following my leaving the property. In fact could it not be argued that up until he vacated he would actually be offsetting the LL costs in him still remaining until the new purchaser had taken possession?

My brother is happy to leave the property, but is not prepared to accept that he has done anything wrong in this situation. No clear guidelines have been provided by the landlord up till the notice was served on him and myself. Considering we have never missed payments and endured a fair amount of inconvenience, we feel compelled to look at redressing the situation in whatever method is available.

I appreciate yourself and others are almost certainly much more well versed in these matters and the likelyhood of having our issues addressed fairly are remote. However we are both quite stubborn (family trait!) when it comes to matters of injustice.

Thank you for your advice, I really do appreciate the time you and others have taken to reply. Ironically I have always previously been a home owner, so never understood the law relating to renting a property. So much to learn if I ever decide to rent again! TBH i think I will just buy next time....

Guest101

Orgazzz wrote: »

Hi Sajaan,

Thanks for your reply. I really do appreciate it!

Sorry if I didn't make this clear but neither myself or brother considered the property a forever home. It was convenient for the business and we were genuinely helping him and the business out by renting it as he would not have had much success doing so in the condition it was in.

He did indicate that he would address the heating from the outset, but this took 2 years to resolve and I took the lead in it. Permission was granted, although would it not be the case that we could effect repairs even if it wasn't given due to the fact that 2 years had now elapsed with no action on his part? - no, you need permission or he could claim damages

"You can start court action to claim compensation during your tenancy or up to 6 years after it ends."

I pulled that from Shelters website (thanks for the recommendation!). - That's the legal position, but proving it is much much harder

We stayed in the property for the benefit of the company, as we all had a vested interest in it. It was convenient to use it for storage of materials (large plot of land) so the guys could come and go at all times of day etc. To be honest once he announced he was selling I was fine with moving out and was prepared to forego the issues I had put up with during the time I was there. However when he decided to serve notice on me and also to lie regarding rent owed my attitude has changed.

I left the property in December and my portion of the rent was fully paid up until that point, so not sure why I would be liable for anything as he is/was well aware of the fact. The back rent he is claiming on my part is false and I have the bank statements to verify this. No idea why he would lie about this as so easy to prove otherwise.

As for my brothers 'arrears' he would dispute that he was responsible for the whole tenancy as only paid £300 rent for the property. - That is not a legal excuse. For example if you rented with a partner, as joint tenants, you might each pay half, but you each owe the ll the full amount. He would also argue that the landord had not approached him in any way to indicate that he should pay more rent following my leaving the property. In fact could it not be argued that up until he vacated he would actually be offsetting the LL costs in him still remaining until the new purchaser had taken possession? - no.

My brother is happy to leave the property, but is not prepared to accept that he has done anything wrong in this situation. No clear guidelines have been provided by the landlord up till the notice was served on him and myself. Considering we have never missed payments and endured a fair amount of inconvenience, we feel compelled to look at redressing the situation in whatever method is available.- you can try, but it could just end up being expensive and fruitless

I appreciate yourself and others are almost certainly much more well versed in these matters and the likelyhood of having our issues addressed fairly are remote. However we are both quite stubborn (family trait!) when it comes to matters of injustice. - Moral and legal injustice are two different animals

Thank you for your advice, I really do appreciate the time you and others have taken to reply. Ironically I have always previously been a home owner, so never understood the law relating to renting a property. So much to learn if I ever decide to rent again! TBH i think I will just buy next time....

Just don't rent from colleagues, friends or family and it's much safer and less stressful.


No-one wants to sue someone they see mon-fri

CIS

Services were for electricity and council tax.

Unless there was a tenancy to rent part of the building then the council tax liability will fall on to the occupier (where the landlord is not resident).

The landlord who paid the council tax can approach the local authority (and I've seen it happen on more than a few occasions) to advise the council that they should not have been paying as they were not liable. The council would be obliged to then amend their records and refund the landlord, as they would not be liable for the charge which was paid.

Craig

Guest101

CIS wrote: »

Unless there was a tenancy to rent part of the building then the council tax liability will fall on to the occupier (where the landlord is not resident).

The landlord who paid the council tax can approach the local authority (and I've seen it happen on more than a few occasions) to advise the council that they should not have been paying as they were not liable. The council would be obliged to then amend their records and refund the landlord, as they would not be liable for the charge which was paid.

Craig

That said, if the tenancy puts the onus on the LL, the tenant can sue the LL for any resulting loss.

saajan_12

Orgazzz wrote: »

Hi Sajaan,

Thanks for your reply. I really do appreciate it! - You're welcome, happy to help. Please try to take note of the points rather than repeat your OP (unless you have something to suggest I'm mistaken)

Sorry if I didn't make this clear but neither myself or brother considered the property a forever home. - irrelevant It was convenient for the business and we were genuinely helping him and the business out by renting it as he would not have had much success doing so in the condition it was in. - irrelevant. Besides you expected the work to be done too as you are now looking for compensation so what's the difference?

He did indicate that he would address the heating from the outset, but this took 2 years to resolve and I took the lead in it. - you could have followed Shelter's process to report at the time Permission was granted, although would it not be the case that we could effect repairs even if it wasn't given due to the fact that 2 years had now elapsed with no action on his part? No, there's a specific process outlined by Shelter which you would have needed to follow precisely, there's no default permission.

"You can start court action to claim compensation during your tenancy or up to 6 years after it ends."

I pulled that from Shelters website (thanks for the recommendation!).

We stayed in the property for the benefit of the company, as we all had a vested interest in it. It was convenient to use it for storage of materials (large plot of land) so the guys could come and go at all times of day etc. To be honest once he announced he was selling I was fine with moving out and was prepared to forego the issues I had put up with during the time I was there. However when he decided to serve notice on me and also to lie regarding rent owed my attitude has changed. - irrelevant

I left the property in December and my portion of the rent was fully paid up until that point, so not sure why I would be liable for anything as he is/was well aware of the fact. - You rented the property initially paying the full rent. You have not left the property legally until you return a vacant property. You moved your brother in, so until you both and all your posessions are out, you are still liable for the FULL rent. The back rent he is claiming on my part is false and I have the bank statements to verify this. No idea why he would lie about this as so easy to prove otherwise.Fair enough, have that ready for the deposit scheme / court claim when needed, that should be easy to resolve for August-December

As for my brothers 'arrears' he would dispute that he was responsible for the whole tenancy as only paid £300 rent for the property. - You're still liable for the full £900 (just OP if brother was a lodger or brother and OP jointly He would also argue that the landord had not approached him in any way to indicate that he should pay more rent following my leaving the property. - There's no change in the total rent, this was already requested in the original agreement. The LL doesn't need to re-request this for it to be due. In fact could it not be argued that up until he vacated he would actually be offsetting the LL costs in him still remaining until the new purchaser had taken possession?- Irrelevant

My brother is happy to leave the property, but is not prepared to accept that he has done anything wrong in this situation. No clear guidelines have been provided by the landlord up till the notice was served on him and myself.- Irrelevant, no guidelines needed Considering we have never missed payments - As you should, so? and endured a fair amount of inconvenience, we feel compelled to look at redressing the situation in whatever method is available.

I appreciate yourself and others are almost certainly much more well versed in these matters and the likelyhood of having our issues addressed fairly are remote. However we are both quite stubborn (family trait!) when it comes to matters of injustice.It's business, I don't see the injustice. If you didn't like it, you could have moved out earlier.

Thank you for your advice, I really do appreciate the time you and others have taken to reply. Ironically I have always previously been a home owner, so never understood the law relating to renting a property. So much to learn if I ever decide to rent again! TBH i think I will just buy next time....

You can try but seeing compensation is likely futile. As for the rent, you are simply misinformed about the concept of joint tenancies.