Solicitor Letter Response?

Herzlos

I'd send a formal complaint in writing to Gladstones for letting a debt collector pretend to be a solicitor. Then I'd send one to the SRA too.

You'll probably cost them more than they are trying to scam out of you just handling it, and then you can beat them at court if it comes to that and cost them more, too

BathCarOwner

Is there any mileage in the fact that I never received an original charge notice?

I guess it was because I had moved house and the vehicle was registered to a previous address.

But the first I knew of this action was 2 months after the alleged incident.
I was never offered an opportunity to contest the original sum, or lodge an appeal within any reasonable timeframe. And, to this day, I have not been presented with any photographic 'evidence'. I don't even know the specific area or property the contravention refers to.

Umkomaas

Is there any mileage in the fact that I never received an original charge notice?

Not really. The PPC would use only the address provided by the DVLA. All their subsequent agents would use that address too. This is a fairly common occurrence here - but many result in default CCJs. So you must make Gladstones and Park Watch fully aware that your address has changed and any and all communications in future must be to this new address.

Have you notified the DVLA (twice - one for driver licence, one for V5C) of the change? You are exposed to a real fine from the DVLA - up to £1,000.

BathCarOwner

Yes, DVLA were notified at the time and my address details are correct on V5C. And all the letters I receive in regard to this alleged contravention are to my new address.

But I don't understand how I can be penalised (increased fine) for not responding to a letter that I didn't receive. No evidence of the alleged parking contravention has ever been provided to me. In that circumstance, why would I even consider responding to them, let alone paying?!

And can they take me to court without supplying me with photographic evidence and/or specific details of the place where it supposedly occurred?

More importantly, I was never given the opportunity to go through the POPLA appeals process.
Just hit straight with a £149 demand from a debt collector two months after the incident.

Coupon-mad

I don't understand how I can be penalised (increased fine)

It's not a fine and it hasn't 'increased'. It was always £100 but the PPCs have to offer a 'discount' (same as with Council PCNs, it is always the higher figure really in play if appealing/not paying - the discount means nothing at all except as a bribe not to appeal, same as with council PCNs, a nullity to people who fight).

I am glad you didn't get the first letter if you are suggesting you might have paid!

Loadsofchildren123

So every single thing you have received, you have had to your new address, and you changed your V5 address as soon as you moved?


When you get the LBC add to your list of things you are asking for a copy of the original NtK and the original NtD (if one was issued). Also ask for any and all photographs. Also ask for full details of where the car was parked, and exactly when and for how long.


There is a presumption in POFA that a posted NtK is received and it's up to you to rebut that. Obviously you have no way of doing that other than by saying you didn't receive it (it adds some weight to your evidence that you can list all the other things you received, and that you carefully kept them - you can say that you are a meticulous record keeper and always comply with your obligations - had you received it you would definitely not have ignored it or thrown it away but would have dealt with it either by appealing it if you felt it was wrongly/unfairly issued or you would have considered paying it). It then boils down to your word against the PPC's whether or not you received it. The judge has to decide, on balance, who he/she believes "on the balance of probabilities".


You put this sort of detail in to add "colour" to what you are saying and to make it more convincing - you come across as honest in your posts here about not receiving it, that's the tone you want to take when you come to dealing with this issue in your evidence.

BathCarOwner

Re: So every single thing you have received, you have had to your new address, and you changed your V5 address as soon as you moved? - Yes. The only thing I did not receive was an original PCN / NtK / NtD. So no photographic evidence. And no chance for me to initiate a POPLA appeal.

In the first letter I received on this matter (a demand for unpaid PCN £149 to my new address) Debt Recovery Plus acknowledged that my address had changed:

'Due to their being no response following correspondence to this (previous) address we have utilised a tracing service which has provided the above new address as your most current address.'

So they knew that I could not have received a PCN and would not have been aware of the issue at all. And this was two months after the alleged contravention.

I will do as you so eloquently suggest (I am a meticulous record keeper!) ... if the judge were to agree that I didn't receive it, how might it influence the outcome of any case?

Loadsofchildren123

If the NtK isn't valid under POFA (ie not served in time as you didn't receive it - IF the judge sides with you on this) then you can only be liable as the driver. They have to prove you were the driver (balance of probabilities). If you can show that others use your car then you can say this can't be proved (eg 3rd parties on your insurance, shared family car etc). But if it's pretty obvious you were the driver then the judge may make a finding that you were.


To be liable as driver, they have to show that there was a contract formed with the driver by virtue of adequate/clear/prominently displayed signage, and that they have authority granted to them by the landowner to sue.


Yes you are right in what you say above, they must accept you didn't receive the original NtK (I assume this was a postal one so a POFA para 9 NtK, rather than para 8 which follows a windscreen NtD) if they are now acknowledging that you moved.


There may be a data protection issue here. Had you registered your new address on the logbook by the time they were entitled to apply to the DVLA for keeper details? DPA is not my speciality, I concentrate on proceedings and procedural points/defences.

Loadsofchildren123

You have to factor in "litigation risk" - that your argument over receiving the NtK is 50:50 your word against theirs, and that a judge may find that you were the driver.
You cannot assume that the junior judges who hear these small claims know what they are doing. Many of them are not terribly good, I'm afraid and this is all a bit of a lottery.


I'm not discouraging you from defending, far from it, but you must go in with your eyes open (and even if you lose, your worst case is you have to pay what they are claiming from you now, with £50 court costs on top, so the risk is minimal and at least it puts them to a huge amount of time, trouble and cost)

BathCarOwner

Genuine thanks to all of you who have so selflessly replied. The information you are freely giving is very helpful and genuinely appreciated.

My wife is also insured on the vehicle and drives it.
Impossible to say who was driving as the alleged contravention took place so long ago, and months in advance of us even being notified.