Unoccupied properties.

Cardew

There are a number of people who have properties that are unoccupied for long periods in the winter, e.g. holiday homes, people who spend some of the winter abroad, between sales/lettings etc.

In my case I have a little used detached annex(converted stables) that is fully gas centrally heated with a combi boiler. For the past 25+ years I have set the thermostat to ‘frost Stat’ and when temperature dropped to 5C the boiler fired up, CH came on and all was well.

Last year I replaced the boiler with a new Veissmann combi boiler; obviously a condensing boiler and again set it to ‘Frost protection’ which the manual tells me kicks in at 5C. Because the property uses so little gas/electricity I rarely check the meter readings. When a few weeks ago I did check, there had been a big jump in electricity consumption – but not gas. When I checked the room temperature was 10C, as naturally was the displayed water temperature, however the internal pump in the boiler was running – but the boiler not firing. I checked over the next couple of days and it was clear that the pump was running 24/7.

Spoke to my plumber, who assumed a fault but could find nothing wrong. He in turn spoke to the manufacturer who contacted Germany. To cut a long story short it transpires that, on any setting, when the water temperature drops to 8C the pump starts up and it will run continuously until the water temperature reaches 12C. With the boiler not firing this means the pump will run 24/7 all winter. Even now the temperature around 10C internally.

The factory in Germany added that all(most?) manufacturers now use exactly the same software package, so all newish boilers will be the same.(I hesitate to call it a fault).


On MSE we get quite a few cases where the old occupants give closing meter readings, and new occupants moving in some weeks later dispute those readings - could this account for some of those cases??


I now switch off the boiler power unless the forecast is really cold, and put it on every few weeks for an hour or so.

G_M

Cardew wrote: »

...... it transpires that, on any setting, when the water temperature drops to 8C the pump starts up and it will run continuously until the water temperature reaches 12C. With the boiler not firing this means the pump will run 24/7 all winter. Even now the temperature around 10C internally.

.

Just a thought: could you not set the thermostat a bit higher, rather than using the frost setting?

Then the boiler would fire up, raise the temp, and then both boiler and water pump would switch off.

Not ideal as your gas usage would rise a bit, but electricity use would drop.

footyguy

G_M wrote: »

Just a thought: could you not set the thermostat a bit higher, rather than using the frost setting?

Then the boiler would fire up, raise the temp, and then both boiler and water pump would switch off.

Not ideal as your gas usage would rise a bit, but electricity use would drop.

Most, if not all, insurers of unoccupied properties require the property to be maintained 24/7 at a temperature of at least 55 degrees F during the winter months, or to have all the water systems turned off and completely drained down.

I don't know about you, but I found you can hear the pump running in any unoccupied property

Not the same situation as above, but we once had a boiler failure, and so because the boiler did not light the pump kept running - it was actually that noise of the pump running (and the boiler not) that alerted us to the issue with the boiler. The boiler seemed to have some clever electronics in it - if it was unsuccesful in lighting the first time, it would try again. If it still failed to light, it gave up with an error message. But it this was not linked to the central heating pump.

Cardew

footyguy wrote: »

Most, if not all, insurers of unoccupied properties require the property to be maintained 24/7 at a temperature of at least 55 degrees F during the winter months,
.

55 degreesF or 35 degrees?

footyguy

Cardew wrote: »

55 degreesF or 35 degrees?

55 degrees F / 13 degrees C

Cardew

footyguy wrote: »

Most, if not all, insurers of unoccupied properties require the property to be maintained 24/7 at a temperature of at least 55 degrees F during the winter months, or to have all the water systems turned off and completely drained down.

Hi footyguy,

I have never seen this stipulation(55F) on any insurance policy I have ever purchased. Moreover I cannot see the logic behind such a condition.

The 'water turned off and system drained' is sensibly to prevent frost damage with no heating at all.

However given water freezes at 32F why on earth would they require a temperature 23 degrees above that figure? Indeed over the last 30+ years every CH system I have used has a froststat that maintains a temperature of 3C(37F) or 5C(41F).

I have 2 CH systems here and both state:

Frost Protection Mode

If you do not want to heat the rooms but would like to have frost protection. Central Heating starts if the room temperature drops below 5C.

If 55F is mandatory, what is the purpose of a froststat?

footyguy

Cardew wrote: »

Hi footyguy,

I have never seen this stipulation(55F) on any insurance policy I have ever purchased. Moreover I cannot see the logic behind such a condition.

The 'water turned off and system drained' is sensibly to prevent frost damage with no heating at all.

However given water freezes at 32F why on earth would they require a temperature 23 degrees above that figure? Indeed over the last 30+ years every CH system I have used has a froststat that maintains a temperature of 3C(37F) or 5C(41F).

I have 2 CH systems here and both state:



If 55F is mandatory, what is the purpose of a froststat?

Where do you buy your unoccupied property insurance cover from?

A froststat is primarily designed to stop damage to the boiler. They are fitted where a boiler is fitted in a location likely to freeze (such as a garage)
Therefore many homes do not even have a froststat.


Edit: A quick google for me of 'unoccupied property insurance' comes up with towergate (after all the google ads)
Here's their policy wording
http://www.towergateunderwriting.co.uk/pdf/Post_2015.01.01_Unnoccupied_Policy_Wording_.pdf

See page 19/20 Endorsement 21 ( UNOCCUPANCY CONDITION)

Seems they want 58 degrees F / 15 degrees C

Cardew

I don't buy 'unoccupied property insurance, my annex is not unoccupied; it is not used regularly.

My house insurance is currently from More Th>n. The 'annex' is part of the main house policy. Although the annex is a detached former stables it would only require separate house insurance if was a property that had a separate 'identity' and in my case the annex cannot be sold/leased. In that respect it is treated no differently to, say, a detached garage.

The policy simply excludes 'damage by frost'.

On the subject of 'froststats', both mine are set on the wireless thermostat which can be moved to any location. Whilst I agree that often a froststat is to protect the boiler; boiler damage would not normally be covered by house insurance.

Anyway the aim of this thread was to point out that with many new boilers the pump will run continuously while the water temperature is below 12C.

P.S.
Your link for insurance for 'unoccupied' properties is interesting. Apart from the ludicrous requirement the have the property heated to 58F/15C at all times

ENDORSEMENT
21 UNOCCUPANCY CONDITION
i)
It is a condition precedent to Our liability under this policy that the
Home is inspected internally and externally at least once every 7 days by Your representative and that all Mail,newspapers, flyers and such are removed from the Home and that the Building and gardens of the Home are suitably maintained in good condition.

footyguy

Cardew wrote: »

I don't buy 'unoccupied property insurance, my annex is not unoccupied; it is not used regularly....

Ah, that would explain it.

You put the title of your thread as "Unoccupied properties."

... and hence my reply was

footyguy wrote:

Most, if not all, insurers of unoccupied properties require the property to be maintained 24/7 at a temperature of at least 55 degrees F during the winter months, or to have all the water systems turned off and completely drained down. ...

You have never seen this stipulation(55F) on any insurance policy because you have presumably never looked into unoccupied property insurance

In regards to

=Cardew wrote: »

My house insurance is currently from More Th>n. The 'annex' is part of the main house policy.

I guess most people in your situation would just have such an integral part of their home, albeit that they may not use regularly, as part of their central heating system of their home
(but perhaps turn the radiators off in the rooms involved when they are not being used)

Would probably be so much cheaper. One boiler (perhaps not if it is a detached building as in your case), one gas supply, even one council tax :money:
(Yes the council tax on the main home may be a little higher because of the larger property, but the addition would be less than the cost of an entirely different one)


Edit:

Cardew wrote: »

...

P.S.
Your link for insurance for 'unoccupied' properties is interesting. Apart from the ludicrous requirement the have the property heated to 58F/15C at all times

That policy is representative of most unoccupied property insurance policy wording (except possibly the specific reference to the gardens), in my experience.