Survey on poorly treated Victorian terrace - reasonable and not reasonable costs?

blueskyrooftop

Hi all,

I've just had the Building Survey report back from the surveyor on the house I'm in the process of buying.

The house is a 2-bed Victorian terrace, one of the lower quality ones thrown up in the 1880s for railway workers. House had been on the market for a couple of months, offer accepted was 97% of the asking price.

I have budgeted around £20,000 for new bathroom, new kitchen, flooring and decoration (woodchip, argh!), plus another £5,000 for a couple of obvious instances of damp (one condensation related - wall needs insulating, one small penetrating damp area under a window) plus fixing a few cracks in the render, repainting externally and other general maintenance that you would expect with an older house. It's a probate sale, so it's not been well maintained for a few years and then has been sitting empty for the best part of six months. I would say the price of these works was adequately reflected in the offer that was accepted, based on how much similar 'done up' houses have gone for recently.

Unfortunately most of the period features, chimney breasts and the load bearing wall between the reception rooms were ripped out in a 1989 refit, for which there are no building controls final certifications. The survey has thrown up a big issue relating to this: the RSJ in the loft that's supposed to be holding up the remainder of the chimney is hanging in mid-air at one end - it's apparently magic! The surveyor has recommended that this be investigated asap by a structural engineer, and that this person look at the other structural changes as well. This would mean removing plaster and part of an Artex ceiling that may or may not have asbestos.

Along with this, these other hidden defects have emerged:

* Front bedroom window only opens at the top - too small to exit in the event of a fire. Needs replacement.
* Original roof timbers bowing under the weight of replacement concrete tiles. Needs to be braced.
* Roofing felt not installed correctly, leaving a gap between the tiles and party walls where rain can penetrate. Would need scaffolding to fix.
* Chimney and roof flashings and pots need significant repair. Would need scaffolding to fix.
* Install ventilation in roof and chimney breast.
* Joists in upstairs floors need reinforcement.
* Apparent rising damp to the front and back walls needs to be investigated by PCA member (I know, pinch of salt, but still, not something I want to deal with if there is a big issue that would require re-rendering or lowering ground levels, etc.)
* No record of gas safety cert or boiler service. Boiler looks to be over 10 years old. (Vendors have claimed that it works and have refused to pay for a service.)
* Lath and plaster ceilings in bedroom are at the end of their lives - recommend replacement before they fall down. (One of these is noticeably sagging.)
* Artex on said ceilings needs to be tested for asbestos.
* Soil vent pipe not long enough. Needs to be extended by about 900mm.
* Cracked benching in drain inspection chamber and needs to be flushed.
* Fire door to be installed between hallway and kitchen.

These items aren't dealbreakers taken individually, however I'm aware that fixing these represents a chunk of money, especially as many different tradespeople would need to be instructed.

MY QUESTIONS (finally!): Which of these items, if any, do you think I would be reasonable going back to the vendors on, to try to get a renegotiation of the price? And how would you manage that process as quickly as possible? I'm the top of a chain and my buyers have already been making noises about the length of time it's taking to exchange.

My conveyancer has already said that the vendors should pay for the structural engineer and any work relating to the 1989 structural changes, based on the fact that the work is obviously deficient and there is no building control sign off.

The vendors are the children of the late owner of the house and live many miles away. I can't see them wanting to do work on the property, as I said, they've already refused to get a simple boiler service, and I'd prefer them not to, as potentially it might be a bodge just to get the sale through and the poor house has already suffered enough indignities.

Any and all advice gratefully received. Thanks in advance!

alumende27

It's hard to know. Was the house competitively priced in the knowledge that it had not been well maintained? How does it compare to similar properties in the area?

I'd suggest that the RSJ issue warrants a reduction in price depending on what the structural engineer recommends, along with the issue of overly heavy roof tiles for the design of the roof.

Most of the other issues are fairly minor in the grand scheme of things. My house supposedly had asbestos in the artex. Some we removed with some of that blue goop (X-tex?) you can get from toolstation, and we solved the issue of end of life lathe and plaster ceilings with a mix of plasterboard screwed through existing ceilings to joists, and pulled down and replaced completely in one room. I certainly wouldn't go to the bother of testing it (if it's older than 10ish years or so it almost certainly has asbestos in it - just don't sand it down and breathe in the fumes, otherwise it's pretty much a non issue).

None of that's particularly expensive to deal with especially if you're renovating.

I've had chimney and roof flashings done before (replacing awful cement rendering), it didn't need scaffolding and took the guy a day. That said, one of my neighbours had her chimney flashings repaired recently along with some repointing and had scaffolding up for a few weeks.

Anyway, if none of this was apparent when you first viewed the house, it seems reasonable to ask for a discount. Like I said, it all depends on how it's priced compared to neighbouring properties, and how buoyant the market is in that area.

My current house had several structural issues. We ended up paying for all the surveys, but I got the vendors to pay for the work. It all depends on what you can negotiate. If they won't lower the price or do anything then you alternatives are to pay for everything yourself or walk away.

phill99

These things are completely standard for a house that is 140 years old. It is basic maintenance and ongoing repairs. Lathe and plaster ceilings will eventually need replacement or overboarding.


98% of house in the UK have asbestos in them. It only stopped being used in construction around 20 years ago.


Why should the vendors get a boiler service? There is no statutory requirement to have a boiler serviced. If it is 10 years old or more, you will probably be looking at a replacement in the near future.


The front bedroom window won't need replacing. Most of the housing stock in the UK wont have fire reg compliant windows. The legislation is not retrospective.


You can ask for a discount, but don't expect much. If you want a perfect house, then don't look at older houses. You will be very disappointed.






The bedroom

Cakeguts

I would be more worried about the missing load bearing wall and what the joists upstairs are resting on.

alumende27

phill99 wrote: »

These things are completely standard for a house that is 140 years old.

Some of these things are completely standard for a 140 year old house. Others are not.

Notably:

tiles that are heavier than those originally installed, to the point the timbers are bowing.
RSJ unsupported at one end.

Like I wrote in my original post, it all depends on how the house has been priced compared to others nearby. I'd expect a house in need of renovation to be priced accordingly. The OP has not told us the location or the price (or rightmove link!) so it's rather difficult to know whether that is actually the case.

dimbo61

Look it will need a complete rewire and new boiler as well.
Get this done before you spend thousands on expensive fittings to bathroom and kitchen.
Start from the roof and work down.

[Deleted User]

Just as a tiny bit of information. I had awful problems with a cold back bedroom, the radiators don't work very well (its rented) so no matter what I did the room was cold. Even with a dehumidifier, mould developed on walls and ceiling.

I asked for advice on here and was made aware of insulated wallpaper. I've used Graphite insulating wallpaper in my bedroom. It brought instant insulation and increased the temperature of the room as soon as applied (you do have to use quite an expensive glue - was like PVA so I wonder if you could get away with using that at a quarter of the price lol). The bedroom walls no longer feel cold and damp, they are at the same temperature as the rest of the house, that's how good it is.

It is often available for £15 a roll, I found a site offering it for £11.95 with no delivery charge so saved at least a tenner for three rolls. The rolls I got were 4mm thick. Something like https://www.trade1st.co.uk/graphite-insulating-lining-paper-10m-50cms?gclid=CM38scP5v9ICFWUq0wodQ9wBFQ

I bought mine from a company called CoverYourWall. Cheapest price for the branded paper I could find.

Obviously you have to 1) be sure the problem IS caused by lack of insulation.., not a broken gutter or bricks that need repointing 2) Be prepared to scrub the mould away before applying if there is any (I bought a special mask as I have asthma).

But its a cheap solution and certainly works.

blueskyrooftop

I had the electrics checked and they've been fairly recently updated. All signed off bar one socket that needs replacing, so that's not a thing I need to worry about.

The folks saying that all this stuff is 'standard' for an old house. Er, no. A lot of the issues with the house have been caused by this so-called modernisation, with the extra stresses and strains on the house caused by an overloaded roof and taking out perfectly good walls and chimney breasts. The actual 140-year-old parts are fine in the main.

blueskyrooftop

In terms of pricing, I wouldn't have paid the asking price, but I would say the price we've agreed on the house was a fair one based on the obvious stuff that was wrong with it: minor damp issues caused by condensation and render cracks around a window, need for bathroom and kitchen refurbishment, new flooring, complete redecoration. Thinking about it, they probably expected me to allow for a new boiler in that.

I don't want to put up the Rightmove link, sorry, but I can say that a house of the exact same layout at the slightly nicer end of the same street, well maintained with lovely kitchen and bathroom, plus all the original period fittings (fireplaces, stripped floorboards, cornicing, nice windows) went back in January 2016 for the agreed price + £55,000. Period fittings are missing from this house, has UPVC windows and doors, and it's closer to the main road so I wouldn't expect to match that price if I had to sell, even if all the work was done.

alumende27

You seem very reluctant to state what this house was on the market for so it's difficult to gauge what an extra £55K is in percentage terms but it sounds like it's being competitively priced. Nevertheless it seems worthwhile going back to the vendors and asking for a price reduction when you get a quote for the cost of bracing the roof and dealing with the RSJ issue.

Hoploz

I'm sorry but I agree that most of these items, including the roof covering, ARE pretty par for the course. Life expectancy of a roof is 50-70 years ... A huge number of Victorian slate roofs have been replaced over the years with clay tiles and suffer from the additional weight.

I am concerned by the missing wall and unsupported rsj of course - that's not normal.

As long as it is priced accordingly, and you are prepared to have the work done, there's no reason to pull out. It's very difficult to give advice on values with or without a rightmove link. You know the local market better than any of us.

You were aware from the start that this is a do-er upper. You can only really ask for money towards unexpected costs. Which is the structural support work. You know it needs doing so you not need a further structural report - you just assume the cost will be that of reinstating a solid wall under this rsj. You could ask a builder if you need help estimating the cost of this.

The question is, how low will the sellers go? Bear in mind that if you have already agreed a price below asking, if you then ask for a chunk of money off they might decide to just auction the place instead of continuing with you.

You've got to decide how much it's worth to you ... In other words, could you find a house in better condition for the same price?