Ukpc pcn

oridiusmorphius

I dont think i have posted here before so in a nutshell:

- 24th Jan 17: Found the estate management team had parked a crane and a portable workers toilet in my bay, i displayed my residents permit and visitor permit and parked in a visitors bay
- 4th Feb 2017: Found a parking charge notice on my car from UKPC
- 5th Feb 2017: received a reply from TVH that they would sort it out
- 5th Feb 2017: Contacted the estate management team and got the reply: I have sent the parking ticket to UKPC, as soon as I have heard from them I’ll be in touch. I have also asked them to ignore your vehicle until further notice , which means you can carry on in the visitor bay until the contractors have left site.
27th Feb 2017: Received the reject of my appeal and a second demand letter from UKPC

This is where i am at today, i still have my car parked in the visitor bay, with my permit and the visitor permit displayed and the crane is still in my spot.

What is my best course of action and secondly, can i pass the charge onto my housing association as they own the land and have taken my space?

Thanks

Karl

Coupon-mad

Found the estate management team had parked a crane and a portable workers toilet in my bay, i displayed my residents permit and visitor permit and parked in a visitors bay

Tell the management company to read Saeed v Plustrade and that they cannot remove parking bays already granted to you:

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2001/2011.html

Similar, look:

''From May 1997, until 1st August 2000, the forecourt could not in any event be used for car parking because the area was required by the defendants' contractors who were undertaking the refurbishment of the fourth floor flats and the construction and fitting out of the penthouse suites on the fifth floor.''

(The managing agents were guilty of interference with the residents' easement/right to park in the bay granted under the lease in the first place and it could not be taken away or charged for).

Tell them - in writing, the agents - to cancel the UKPC PCN immediately because this conduct by their agent comprises a matter of derogation from grant and you will hold the management company liable if they allow their agent to sue you. Show them that link and give them seven days to cancel it.

oridiusmorphius

P.S. sorry to post to my own thread, but this is so complicated, i am not the quickest with this sort of stuff, most of this seems to be aimed at parking and overstaying your welcome, mine is just parking where i live. I don't even know if i need a POPLA, i have had the first letter notifying me of my appeal and stating they will look at it, they also asked for the name of the driver. I replied no one was driving but i am the registered keeper, does this mean they dont have to send a NTK or NTD? Was that letter essentially the NTK and NTD? So damn confusing, this must be how they make their money...

Having said all that, i have no intention of paying...

oridiusmorphius

Just a couple of additions:

1) I have just checked my Tenancy Agreement and it makes no mention of me having a parking space although i have a space that has a plaque on it with my building and flat number. I have been using it for 10 years

2) What is the NTK? When i appealed i had a letter acknowledging my appeal and asking for the driver at the time, i wrote back with my name stating i am the keeper of the vehicle as the car was not being driven at the time:

Does this mean i have had the NTK letter as i had the one asking for those details?
Does it mean, since i have replied, i do not need a NTK?

Thanks for your help on this.

I have had a letter from the landowner stating i am allowed to park where i am, in the visitor bay as my space is occupied by a crane, but UKPC is still going ahead.

Thanks all...

Coupon-mad

Sounds like you have had no NTK within 56 days of the windscreen PCN (NTD) which is a common omission for UKPC and means they will be unable to pursue the registered keeper.

Does it mean, since i have replied, i do not need a NTK?

No, they have to serve one to hold a keeper liable, so they should be doing so in any case, regardless of appeal made, if they have never ascertained who was driving/parked. Do not tell them, it's your second strongest defence point behind the derogation from grant 'Saeed v Plustrade and the Jopson Appeal case argument, supported by this:

I have had a letter from the landowner stating i am allowed to park where i am, in the visitor bay as my space is occupied by a crane, but UKPC is still going ahead.

I have just checked my Tenancy Agreement and it makes no mention of me having a parking space although i have a space that has a plaque on it with my building and flat number. I have been using it for 10 years.

Doesn't matter, you can use your AST in your favour too because you were there first, had rights granted from 10 years ago to park in that marked demised space and the AST has never been varied to incorporate any 'parking charge' onerous terms, which you have never agreed to. UKPC have few legs to stand on I would say but it won't stop them staggering at you, unless the MA calls the dogs off once and for all.

oridiusmorphius

This is becoming comical: Some replies below:

Thank you for your email.

I have spoken to XXXX at the estate office and he has stated that as both your visitors and residents permit was on display, this is why you were issued the ticket, only the visitors permit should have been on display when parked in the visitors bay.

XXXX has spoken to UKPC and they have informed him that they are willing to reduce the fee to £15. The contract with UKPC is not with TVHA, it is with The Estate Executive Committee. TVHA have no authorisation to request the ticket be cancelled.

Regards

Second reply:

Hi ME,

Please find the response from UKPC below, in order to pay for reduced rate.

Regards
XXXX
Estate Manager

---

Hi XXXX,

Thank you for your email, I hope you’re well.

The resident will need to appeal the charge and provide a copy of a valid parking permit. The appeals team will then reduce the parking charge to £15.00.

I hope this helps.


Kind Regards
XXXX from UKPC

---

Shall i laugh or cry,

I never had the visitors permit on display at all, as i have a resident permit and had to use the visitor bay as this same estate office have dropped a very large crane in my resident bay.

So the estate office have caused this ticket and now expect me to pay it, i think i am having fun!!!

Coupon-mad

You are having fun and need to be assertive again, they've tried to reply in a lighthearted way but you can tell them that if you sue for 'derogation from grant' (removal of your demised space, causing you potential loss) it will cost them a lot more than £15 so your suggest whoever put the crane in your bay pays UKPC their dirty money. Tell them to read Saeed v Plustrade and take on board this not something that an Estate Management team can lawfully do (remove demised bays, not even temporarily) and it leaves them open to litigation.

Tell them you will NOT be 'appealing' to anyone but if UKPC sue you, the Estate Executive Committee will be liable for tortious interference causing loss - so ask the person emailing to can ask the Estate Executive Committee's chair, if there are any dates this year when he/she is not available to be called to court? Because you will call them to court over this if not resolved properly and at no cost to you. Give them seven days to get this cancelled or for the Estate Executive Committee to pay off UKPC's nasty demand.

leeda84

Hang on, you said at the beginning you had both permits on display and your last post you said you never had a visitor permit on display - which is it? What was the exact reason on the ticket for the charge? Do the photos show/not show what is suggested on the ticket?

Personally, I would give the managing agents a lot more grief. I would remind them that you were given NO notice that these large items were going to be placed in your bay nor any timescales. Ask why you were given no notice. Ask why they couldn’t use a visitor space for them instead. Ask them if they think its reasonable for a long-term resident to be penalised for their lack of logistical planning and lack of communication.

I would also mention that you, as the registered keeper of the vehicle, have no intention of paying the ticket nor the “reduced amount of £15” due to the estate management’s failings. They had no right to use your space, especially without any notice being given, which in turn meant the driver had every right to park where they did.

As a little sweetener at the end, tell them that if they don’t cancel the ticket and UKPC bring the case to court (long shot but it might happen), you will have no issue bringing the estates management in to proceedings and when you win, you will be seeking to claim costs from them as well as UKPC.

oridiusmorphius

Okay, i didn't cover everything, i had the resident permit stuck to the window, and it has been there for 5 years.


The visitor permit was in the car but on the seat, i got home during a storm and it was blown there, it was still visible if they had looked.


The PCN ticket only states 'parked in a permit bay without a valid permit', but the photo they took, showed my permit in the window and no proof i was in a visitor bay, no photo of the visitor bay sign or anything, and that fact was not mentioned on the ticket. So according to the photos and the PCN description, they claim i parked in a permit bay without a permit but have in evidence a photo of my permit, so complete contradiction.


I have sent a long email to the HA and the state manager stating all of the above in leeda84 post and have asked why the estate management team is not paying fo my ticket.


In another curious development, i found, i copied all the photos they took and they have taken a nice one of the sign to accompany the evidence, the only problem is i cannot find the equivelant sign on the estate, the one they took a photo of is white and black letters, the only two within 20 metres of the space i was parked in are black with white letters, at night, wheh they took the photos, you cant read it, even thought i have a mobile with zoom. Also, the signs are on a lampost about 8 foot of the ground.


I wish that someone would do something about these cowboys, how many law abiding, hard working people have to go through this every day, its sandalous!!!

Coupon-mad

Do you think they have altered the photo, used a negative version then photo-shopped it in overlaid on the black sign?

Can you show us the signage photo as a broken link?

oridiusmorphius

Hi, so angry about this i am posting errors here or there, or have they updated the picture on their website, i need to calm down a bit and stop being so stressed and angry.

The photos i have are here and i have removed personal stuff:

Okay, i have been trying to send this reply for ages but as i am a new user, i cannot insert links to prnt.sc so you can view the images, i cannot insert images direct, but i have found a way around this, take the bold text below, put it at the beginning of the prnt.sc text and you can see the images.


- put this at the beginning of each link: http://

1) put the bold item above at the beginning of this - prnt.sc/efwfwe

This is the photos of the sign they are using, as you can see they have used a flash to make sure it is visible, this is from their website

2) put the bold item above at the beginning of this - prnt.sc/efwgk3

This is pretty much what the signs look like at night time, i did not find the one they took a photo of but this is the one within 2 metres of where i was parked, i took this one

3) put the bold item above at the beginning of this - prnt.sc/efwgws

This one states the charge, but does not state that the offence was in a visitor bay, just that i parked without a permit

4) put the bold item above at the beginning of this - prnt.sc/efwhcu

This is the photos from their website of my permit

In effect they have said i parked in a permit bay without a permit, so 3) and 4) invalidate their argument also, they have not clearly stated the offence and the same time taking a photo of my own proof.

Coupon-mad and Leeda84, thanks for you replies and advice, i have the family visiting today but tomorrow i will read this post carefully and action all you have told me.

I wish there was a proper way to sue these companies for all this nonsense as they are causing so much stress to people.

Let me see if i can do this.

Thanks for everything!!!