New Roof?

Wig

Hi ( I am not a builder, have virtually zero knowledge of construction)

I have a typical welsh valleys terraced house, very straight forward roof construction, single ridge, pitched roof, no valleys, extensions, dormer windows or other roof angles/characteristics etc of any description.

The house is about 6m wide on the front and about 7.5m deep

The roof had 2 original purlins, when I bought it in '95, the mortgage company made me put 2 new purlins in, because there was a sag in the roofline. Leaving the original 2 purlins there, means it now has 4 purlins. (this was done with the old roof with the original early 1900's timbers still in place). It is end of terrace so the purlins went in through the gable end.

After that, when I gutted the upstairs, I did not like the look of the under tile felt it was very old. and I did not think much of the original rafters and ceiling joists, so I decided to ask my friend's dad who was a roofer for help.

My roof was totally renewed as a "stick build roof" without any planning regs or building regs around about 2004 (edit maybe 1999 or even earlier) using 50x100 timber, with the centre being supported by a load bearing stud wall dividing front and rear bedrooms. The longest timbers I had were like 5.5m long so they all meet somewhere in the middle and are nailed together. There are no collar ties, I don't think it needs them. There are also some vertical bits (about 3ft long) from the rafters down to the ceiling joists again all just nailed together with 4 inch nails.

It was slapped together on a single weekend, with roofing felt and (new) concrete tiles on top. They did it for £1600. I supplied all the materials. the most expensive being the tiles which were £400.

As it is, I think the roof is good, however there are a few things bugging me.

The tar(asphalt?) coated roofing felt that was used, where it overhangs into the gutter outside it has deteriorated and now just tears away, lost all it's strength. In the main part of the roof under the tiles it still looks as good as new.

I have seen houses going up these days they use modern under tile material made of water proof plastic ( Qu.1 anyone know what they call this?) The annoying thing is I think this was available in 2004 and had I known about it I would have used it.

Does anyone know what they call the sheet of wood (Qu.2) under the bottom row of tiles above the soffit boards, which runs along on top of the rafters the whole length of the roof... and basically suports the roofing felt as it goes over the fascia board into the gutter? There is a modern plastic version of this (Qu. 3) anyone know what it is called? It bugs me that I know this was done on the back of the house, but not on the front of the house.

I am currently in need to totally refurbing the interior of this house, new ceilings and stud walls, new staircase, new central heating, new kitchen, nw bathroom, you name it, it is going to be done, top to bottom.

I am thinking.. if I come to sell it the buyers surveyor might not like the new roof that was done in 2004, because it is stick build. It totally mimicks the construction technique that was used when the house was built in 1900 - 1920. But I don't know if that is good enough or if they would want to see proper roof trusses or those little galvanised plates and galvanised joint hangers that you see on modern roofs whereas mine is just slapped together with nails. (Qu.4 is this going to be a problem when selling?)

So I am thinking ...
Before I totally renovate the house interior..because of the potential problems on selling the house..

Maybe I should be looking at contracting a new roof..
And I would want prefab roof trusses with 300mm deep ceiling joists , for 300mm of insulation with attic flooring boards on top. I saw some roof trusses the other day on the back of a lorry and they had 200mm ceiling joists, and made me wonder Qu.5 if they could do that with 300mm ceiling joists? (they would have to be 7.5m long)

And I would want a black zinc roof instead of tiles, because they look cool and last forever.

I would put some pics but I can't until I get a new computer which will be no time soon.

Any help with some of the answers? Thanks

Oh yeah, Qu.6 An idea how much a new zinc roof with new timbers all round would cost? And any roofers in South Wales who work with zinc?

Furts

You need vapour permeable roofing felt - many brands and colours out there. Your timber is called a tilting fillet, and the black plastic items are eaves protectors.

I suggest your roof is illegal because you have not got Buildings Regulations on it. The principle here is concrete tiles are far heavier than what was likely to have been there before. A load bearing stud wall also rings alarm bells here

But also be brutally honest with yourself. If you had any thoughts of doing a decent job back in 2004 you would have engaged a structural engineer, then sought Buildings Regulations. Following this your friends dad would have shown pride and competence in his work and used the correct felt, fitted tilting fillets and fitted an eaves protection detail.

With these glaring deficiencies I wonder what the rest of the roof is like? It is your choice but it might be a good idea to renew it but this time follow the rules!

Wig

Hi thanks for the terminolgy, now I can see them online.

Just a few points:

The previous roof also had concrete(?) tiles, marley roof tiles, I just renewed the tiles, the new roof is a lot stronger than what was there before. It has 2 purlins front and back.

The new load bearing (50x100mm) stud wall replaced the existing shoddy (non-load bearing)1920s (45x75mm) studwall/lathe and plaster wall that was there already. it is a lot stronger than what was there before.

The roof was meant as a quick cheap fix to get me out of a bind (it was not a proper contracted job, that would have cost a lot more). it has done its job, it might have been earlier, more like 1999 or 98, I can't remember exactly, but I think 2004 sounds a bit too late.

It has only cost about £100 per year over the last 16 - 18 years, so I consider that good value.

I did use the correct felt, I used the top grade (no-rip) under tile felt at the time. I'm not sure when the modern version was introduced, it may not have existed back then or was not in common use. The felt has only deteriorated in the gutters, under the tiles it is still good, but I would want at the very least now to renew the bottom strip of felt, and put eaves protectors. front and back.

It is a pity I did not have a tilting fillet fitted at the front, I am bugged by that, but maybe I didn't have enough timber, it would have been nice if the roofers had told me what was needed but they were only there on 2 days to do the job and it was a quick cheap job. The eaves protectors are easily added when I renew the bottom strip of felt.

The only thing I am still wondering about is whether to go for a whole new roof now or leave it as it is.

Private_Church

Wig wrote: »

Hi ( I am not a builder, have virtually zero knowledge of construction)

I have a typical welsh valleys terraced house, very straight forward roof construction, single ridge, pitched roof


After that, when I gutted the upstairs, I did not like the look of the under tile felt it was very old. and I did not think much of the original rafters and ceiling joists, so I decided to ask my friend's dad who was a roofer for help.

When you say he's a "roofer" do you mean he's a tiler or a carpenter or a guys who does a bit of everything?.

My roof was totally renewed as a "stick build roof" without any planning regs or building regs around about 2004 (edit maybe 1999 or even earlier) using 50x100 timber, with the centre being supported by a load bearing stud wall dividing front and rear bedrooms. The longest timbers I had were like 5.5m long so they all meet somewhere in the middle and are nailed together. There are no collar ties, I don't think it needs them. There are also some vertical bits (about 3ft long) from the rafters down to the ceiling joists again all just nailed together with 4 inch nails.

Why did you think the roof didn't need collars?..

I am thinking.. if I come to sell it the buyers surveyor might not like the new roof that was done in 2004, because it is stick build. It totally mimicks the construction technique that was used when the house was built in 1900 - 1920

.

"Stick built" as you call it have been around for centuries and are still plenty of them pitched everyday across the country. When it was built orginially I wouldn't have had concrete tiles which are heavier for one thing and I'd bet it would have had a few collars too because collars help spread the load and help prevent the roof from pushing the walls out because they are structural.
A stud wall constructed from 100 x 50 (4x2) is not classed as structural unless its graded so it will be stamped with C16,C24 etc and signed off by a structural engineer..............

But I don't know if that is good enough or if they would want to see proper roof trusses or those little galvanised plates and galvanised joint hangers that you see on modern roofs whereas mine is just slapped together with nails. (Qu.4 is this going to be a problem when selling?)

from what you discribe no it won't be good enough, if it was pitched properly in the first place and complied with Building regs then it would be fine. A "Truss roof" is a cheaper option for a complete new roof but you won't get roof trusses fabricated without building regs approval.

Maybe I should be looking at contracting a new roof..
And I would want prefab roof trusses with 300mm deep ceiling joists , for 300mm of insulation with attic flooring boards on top. I saw some roof trusses the other day on the back of a lorry and they had 200mm ceiling joists, and made me wonder Qu.5 if they could do that with 300mm ceiling joists? (they would have to be 7.5m long)

Sounds like you saw some "attic trusses" pre formed so that when they are erected they form a room in the attic. Its possible you could do the same but depends on the current roof pitch which determins how much clear headroom you would have .................You need to employ a structural engineer...........

Wig

Private_Church wrote: »

When you say he's a "roofer" do you mean he's a tiler or a carpenter or a guys who does a bit of everything?.

I dunno, it was nearly 20 years ago, I was 20yrs younger, he was a professional who worked for a construction company, they did roof work, whether they did solely roof work, I dunno.

Why did you think the roof didn't need collars?..

The original didn't have them, and there has been no sagging in the last 16 years. If I stick with this roof, it wouldn't hurt to add some though. EDIT: I just realised, it cannot ever have had collar ties, because the original roof rafters were 100% 45x75 (I have not got any of them left over but I know they were all thin, less than 100x50 replacements). These are just to thin to attach a collar tie. My new house which is 15 miles away and also terraced 100 years old. It has a BIG rafter in the centre of the roof. Anyway, this BIG Rafter has to be at least 150 x 75 (I have not measured it - I will) and there is a collar tie on this rafter. Which makes me think that there can never have been a collar tie on my first house, and none of them in the street have collar ties... Maybe it is the relatively shallow pitch of the roof that makes them impractical or not required (I dunno).
Also the top picture of this page shows no collar ties, and it is mentioned in the caption that there are none.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafter

"Stick built" as you call it have been around for centuries and are still plenty of them pitched everyday across the country. When it was built orginially I wouldn't have had concrete tiles which are heavier for one thing and I'd bet it would have had a few collars too because collars help spread the load and help prevent the roof from pushing the walls out because they are structural.

It would have originally had slate, 100 years ago, but this was changed before I bought it, to tiles. I don't remember seeing any collar ties on the other houses in my street, (I have been in the attics of 3 or 4 other houses in this street. when considering to buy them and they all look as bad as mine did before I had the new roof made.).

A stud wall constructed from 100 x 50 (4x2) is not classed as structural unless its graded so it will be stamped with C16,C24 etc and signed off by a structural engineer..............

It has a double top plate and bottom plate (50x100). It is a heck of a lot stronger than what was there before i.e. the 100 year old wall made from 45 x 75 timber with a single top plate and bottom plate.

From what you discribe no it won't be good enough, if it was pitched properly in the first place and complied with Building regs then it would be fine. A "Truss roof" is a cheaper option for a complete new roof but you won't get roof trusses fabricated without building regs approval.

Sounds like you saw some "attic trusses" pre formed so that when they are erected they form a room in the attic. Its possible you could do the same but depends on the current roof pitch which determins how much clear headroom you would have .................You need to employ a structural engineer...........

Hmmm I'm not sure what they were, didn't seem to be tall enough for standing height. My roof is certainly not big enough to stand up in.

If I don't change the roof I can always sell it to a cash buyer or at auction.

Seems very silly that a 100year old timbered roof with 45x75 rafters, (held together with 100 year old nails, no collar ties, very old under tile felt would likely cause no issues to a mortgage surveyor. But the same house with nice new 100x50 rafters and new undertile felt, built in the same way that the 100year old roof was built ... might cause a problem with the surveyor.

I'm not saying you or the other responder to this thread are wrong, about the roof not going to be accepted by a surveyor, all I am saying is that a socially accepted system of surveying that allows a rickety old stick build roof made entirely of 100 year old 45x75 rafters and ceiling joists, held up by 45x75 lathe and plaster stud walls with single plates....to be accepted, whilst a replacement stick build roof made entirely of 100x50 timber with load bearing stud walls is potentially not to be accepted...that is stupid.

I think as a seller you can offer an insurance policy to the buyer though. I just bought a new house, the seller did not have his building control papers, and my solicitor said it would be OK if they got an insurance policy for the sale. So that's what we did.