some questiosn regarding appeals

damino

Alice_Holt wrote: »

Please look at post 11. Have you read this http://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-win-pip-appeal yet?

The appeal process is now 2 stage:
The MR goes to the DWP
If the DWP don't change their decision you then have to appeal separately to the tribunal service on an SSCS1 form.
This is all explained in the PIP appeal guide. Have you read it?

The crux for you is:
For an enhanced award you need 12 points. Where do you think the additional points should have been scored to bring you to 12 points. If you have say, 8 points (which gives you a standard award), and think you should have been awarded 2 more points - then appealing is dangerous because you can't get to the enhanced rate and you are placing your existing award at risk. A tribunal is more likely to take an award away if they think the appellant is wasting their time, is not a credible witness, and does not have supporting evidence backing up their current award.

I can only generalise because of the lack of any detail.

Think very, very carefully before embarking on an appeal. At the very least get advice from your local CAB.

Have you looked at and understood the links I provided in post 11?
It would be helpful if you could answer this as I fear you have been distracted by rockingbilly, (or just tick the box below this post to confirm you have read it).

Thanks. I am aware there is a risk with appeal or even when I did the reconsideration, I was aware of a risk, that the award can be reduced. And i'm aware the risk is dependent at least partly on supporting evidence.

I am not keen on giving that many personal details because people here (whether well meaning or not), ask why which can only be answered with more personal details and it's just too much personal information that i'm not comfortable putting on the internet. I am happy for you to give the general answer to the general question I am asking. It is what I intended!

I do appreciate your concern and your thoughtful response.

I am well aware that the MR(mandatory reconsideration?) goes to the DWP. I sent them a letter when I requested it the MR.

What i'm asking, is if there has been a change.. This is quite a tricky question so it's possible that nobody here knows. but perhaps you know.

An person I spoke to (Referred to by CAB some time back), said that it used to be the case that if somebody (whether represented by a lawyer or not), sent their request for an appeal(which can include some arguments), to the DWP, then the DWP would sometimes decide not to go to tribunal. Whereas nowadays (whether represented by a lawyer or not), the request for an appeal goes straight to the tribunal. An administrator at a solicitor I used back when it was possible with legal aid, I spoke to them recently, and they said that there has been a change, and that since now the letter goes to the tribunal, the DWP very very rarely decides not to go to tribunal. i.e. it's not quite like Rockerbilly suggests... Rockerbilly says that when people were represented by solicitors, the DWP would often back down, whereas now they're usually not so the DWP don't back down. That may be true , and Rockerbilly thinks it makes no difference whether now or then - if somebody is represented by a solicitor or not is what makes the difference, rockerbilly seems to suggest, but what i'm saying is that from the info I have.. Even when people are represented by solicitors, the cases often go to a tribunal. (and this wasn't the case in the past). I heard that from an administrator at the solicitor that helped me in the past.

You mention that the request for an appeal goes straight to the tribunal. Are you aware of it ever being the case that it used to go to the DWP and no longer does? Or do you think it has always gone straight to the appeals tribunal?

I was told that, even when a person has a solicitor represent them, it's rare for the DWP to drop it before it reaches a tribunal. Whereas it was more common in the past for them to drop it beforehand. I wonder why that is?

I hope i'm asking my question clearly. Thanks

poppy12345

damino wrote: »

Thanks. I am aware there is a risk with appeal or even when I did the reconsideration, I was aware of a risk, that the award can be reduced. And i'm aware the risk is dependent at least partly on supporting evidence.

I am not keen on giving that many personal details because people here (whether well meaning or not), ask why which can only be answered with more personal details and it's just too much personal information that i'm not comfortable putting on the internet. I am happy for you to give the general answer to the general question I am asking. It is what I intended!

I do appreciate your concern and your thoughtful response.

I am well aware that the MR(mandatory reconsideration?) goes to the DWP. I sent them a letter when I requested it the MR.

What i'm asking, is if there has been a change.. This is quite a tricky question so it's possible that nobody here knows. but perhaps you know.

An person I spoke to (Referred to by CAB some time back), said that it used to be the case that if somebody (whether represented by a lawyer or not), sent their request for an appeal(which can include some arguments), to the DWP, then the DWP would sometimes decide not to go to tribunal. Whereas nowadays (whether represented by a lawyer or not), the request for an appeal goes straight to the tribunal. An administrator at a solicitor I used back when it was possible with legal aid, I spoke to them recently, and they said that there has been a change, and that since now the letter goes to the tribunal, the DWP very very rarely decides not to go to tribunal. i.e. it's not quite like Rockerbilly suggests... Rockerbilly says that when people were represented by solicitors, the DWP would often back down, whereas now they're usually not so the DWP don't back down. That may be true , and Rockerbilly thinks it makes no difference whether now or then - if somebody is represented by a solicitor or not is what makes the difference, rockerbilly seems to suggest, but what i'm saying is that from the info I have.. Even when people are represented by solicitors, the cases often go to a tribunal. (and this wasn't the case in the past). I heard that from an administrator at the solicitor that helped me in the past.

You mention that the request for an appeal goes straight to the tribunal. Are you aware of it ever being the case that it used to go to the DWP and no longer does? Or do you think it has always gone straight to the appeals tribunal?

I was told that, even when a person has a solicitor represent them, it's rare for the DWP to drop it before it reaches a tribunal. Whereas it was more common in the past for them to drop it beforehand. I wonder why that is?

I hope i'm asking my question clearly. Thanks

Alice has given you some great advice. She's kindly answered your question about Tribunals. People can't help you further without you answering the questions they've asked you. If you can't give the answer because it's too much personnal info for you then maybe you should speak to CAB. Good luck.

damino

poppy12345 wrote: »

Alice has given you some great advice. She's kindly answered your question about Tribunals. People can't help you further without you answering the questions they've asked you. If you can't give the answer because it's too much personnal info for you then maybe you should speak to CAB. Good luck.

@Poppy

Alice has given some great advice, I can see that and have already clicked the thank button on her post to demonstrate that so that she knows that I had read it and understood the risks of appeal, as she was concerned. It was very kind of her. I can see and appreciate that too. She offered some specific advice and some general advice, it was the general advice that I am interested in..

I'm asking a general question, i'm not asking about my case specifically. i'm asking a question whose answer is the same regardless of the contents of the appeal or the contents of the case. If you think that it's impossible to answer without me giving more personal information then you have not understood my question.

For example, the specific general question I asked whose answer is not yet clear to me.

I asked

"[it has been mentioned that] the request for an appeal goes straight to the tribunal. Are you aware of it ever being the case that it used to go to the DWP and no longer does? Or do you think it has always gone straight to the appeals tribunal? "

poppy, do you really think you need to know more personal info to answer that question? Why? A person would need to know personal info if for example they are very kindly taking an interest in my case specifically and would like to offer me advice on that tailored to my case.. Though i'm not really asking that or anything that requires that. Why would you think that question I have quoted there requires personal information to answer?
(i'm not asking whether anybody here thinks that my supporting evidence is good enough for an appeals tribunal to decide in my favour. Let's suppose that it is, then i'd be interested what the answer to the general question I have asked is) The administrator at the solicitors I spoke to was aware that in my DLA case, that happened, the DWP dropped it and gave me the award. Whereas the administrator at the solicitors said that now that happens very rarely. I'm interested if anybody else has heard similarly. If there has been a change in that now the appeals request goes direct to the appeals tribunal, then maybe people here might agree with the administrator at the solicitors, that even with a solicitors support, the case tends to go to tribunal far more often than it used to. (that is not asking about me personally)

glossgal

I think OP you are asking if cases go straight to the Tribunal Service? Well yes they do but they are only acting as an admin service in a sense-the DWP still have to review a case and prepare all the paperwork once they find out you're appealing so in theory they can still change their mind and 'lapse' the appeal. It is rare for this to happen unless compelling evidence is sent in with the appeal form such as a GP letter eg 'Mr x has x and cannot walk/cook/dress'

bspm

damino wrote: »

Thanks. I am aware there is a risk with appeal or even when I did the reconsideration, I was aware of a risk, that the award can be reduced. And i'm aware the risk is dependent at least partly on supporting evidence.

I am not keen on giving that many personal details because people here (whether well meaning or not), ask why which can only be answered with more personal details and it's just too much personal information that i'm not comfortable putting on the internet. I am happy for you to give the general answer to the general question I am asking. It is what I intended!

I do appreciate your concern and your thoughtful response.

I am well aware that the MR(mandatory reconsideration?) goes to the DWP. I sent them a letter when I requested it the MR.

What i'm asking, is if there has been a change.. This is quite a tricky question so it's possible that nobody here knows. but perhaps you know.

An person I spoke to (Referred to by CAB some time back), said that it used to be the case that if somebody (whether represented by a lawyer or not), sent their request for an appeal(which can include some arguments), to the DWP, then the DWP would sometimes decide not to go to tribunal. Whereas nowadays (whether represented by a lawyer or not), the request for an appeal goes straight to the tribunal. An administrator at a solicitor I used back when it was possible with legal aid, I spoke to them recently, and they said that there has been a change, and that since now the letter goes to the tribunal, the DWP very very rarely decides not to go to tribunal. i.e. it's not quite like Rockerbilly suggests... Rockerbilly says that when people were represented by solicitors, the DWP would often back down, whereas now they're usually not so the DWP don't back down. That may be true , and Rockerbilly thinks it makes no difference whether now or then - if somebody is represented by a solicitor or not is what makes the difference, rockerbilly seems to suggest, but what i'm saying is that from the info I have.. Even when people are represented by solicitors, the cases often go to a tribunal. (and this wasn't the case in the past). I heard that from an administrator at the solicitor that helped me in the past.

You mention that the request for an appeal goes straight to the tribunal. Are you aware of it ever being the case that it used to go to the DWP and no longer does? Or do you think it has always gone straight to the appeals tribunal?

I was told that, even when a person has a solicitor represent them, it's rare for the DWP to drop it before it reaches a tribunal. Whereas it was more common in the past for them to drop it beforehand. I wonder why that is?

I hope i'm asking my question clearly. Thanks

There is your answer, answered by a professional.

The option for the appeal not to go to the Tribunal stage, whether the person concerned is using a Solicitor or not is now decided at the MR stage, if you have already asked for the Mandatory reconsideration (which I believe you have) then that would have been the time the DWP would have made the decision for your case to not go to the Tribunal stage.

Alice_Holt

Yes - once you have lodged the SSCS1 form, it goes straight to the appeals tribunal.

Both the DWP, yourself, and your representative can write submissions to the Tribunal Service outlining their arguments. All 3 parties are sent copies of each others tribunal paperwork and submissions.
Sometimes the DWP, having read your submission, will write a supplementary submission to clarify / further strengthen their arguments.

The tribunal panel will consider the evidence contained in these submissions (which will include your original PIP form, and the medical assessment), and then decide which evidence is preferable and more credible.

It is possible the DWP may send a presenting officer to the tribunal.
See: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/254422/app08.pdf
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3481-dwp-recruits-180-presenting-officers-to-cut-esa-and-pip-appeal-success-rates
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/may/17/government-skewing-benefits-appeals-process-against-disabled-people

But the answer to your question is once you have lodged the SSCS1 form, it goes straight to tribunal.
The DWP had their opportunity to amend the decision at MR stage. They will now present their case, as strongly as they can, to the tribunal.
Both parties have the choice to withdraw from the appeal.
However I have never experienced the DWP withdraw from a tribunal, since the appeal changed in 2013 from a one stage to a two stage process,
The prospect of the DWP withdrawing from a tribunal is very, very slight. I could only imagine it happening if you produced substantive, convincing and incontrovertible supporting evidence post MR stage, even then I have known cases where DWP have continued to appeal in the face of such evidence.
https://formfinder.hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/sscs001a-eng.pdf gives you more information.

pmlindyloo

Not withstanding the good advice that has already been given it is possible for the DMP to change their decision at any point before you go to the tribunal.

For instance, any new evidence that you send for your appeal is also sent to the DWP and it is at this point that the DWP can change their decision and make the need for the tribunal unnecessary.

However, this is not common, but is possible.

Any new evidence should be sent as part of the MR process (as this is what it was set up for) but it has also been known for the DWP to make a decision before new evidence is sent and some claimants do not get the new evidence in time for the MR.

http://www.wwras.org.uk/leaflets/public-leaflets-download/28-pb81/file

damino

Alice_Holt wrote: »

once you have lodged the SSCS1 form, it goes straight to tribunal. [/U][/B]
The DWP had their opportunity to amend the decision at MR stage. They will now present their case, as strongly as they can, to the tribunal.
Both parties have the choice to withdraw from the appeal.

OK

Alice wrote:

However I have never experienced the DWP withdraw from a tribunal, since the appeal changed in 2013 from a one stage to a two stage process,

this is a key sentence.. so nowadays, even when people are represented by a solicitor, since it's now a 2 stage process, the DWP rarely drop it.

could you please outline what the one stage was prior to 2013, vs the two stages since 2013?

NeilCr

Explained here

http://www.thetenantsvoice.co.uk/advice_from_us/new-rules-for-appealing-against-or-challenging-benefit-decisions/

I do have to say that you have had superb support and advice from Alice on this thread. Can I suggest rather than worrying about what the system was four years ago you concentrate on the present and follow her guidance on the way forward

bspm

damino wrote: »

OK



this is a key sentence.. so nowadays, even when people are represented by a solicitor, since it's now a 2 stage process, the DWP rarely drop it.

could you please outline what the one stage was prior to 2013, vs the two stages since 2013?

Google is helpful

APPEALS REFORM 2013

Introduction – What is changing
The appeals process is changing in 2013 so that more disputes against DWP
decisions can be resolved without the need for referral to Her Majesty’s Courts and
Tribunals Service (HMCTS). DWP is committed to preventing disputes, reducing the
escalation of disputes, resolving disputes and learning from disputes. From April
2013 DWP began to introduce changes which were part of the Welfare Reform Act
2012.
What are the changes?
DWP will reconsider all decisions before an appeal. This change will mean that if
someone disputes a decision, they will need to ask DWP to reconsider the decision
before they can appeal to HMCTS. This is known as “mandatory reconsideration”.
The change aims to encourage people to provide additional evidence earlier in the
process. Resolving disputes without the need for an appeal should also help ensure
that people receive the right decision earlier in the process.
Appeals to be made directly to HMCTS. This change will mean that, after DWP has
reconsidered a decision, if someone still disputes the decision and wishes to appeal,
they must send their appeal directly to HMCTS. This is known as “direct
lodgement”. It will bring the process for Social Security and child maintenance
appeals into line with other major tribunal jurisdictions handled by HMCTS.
Time limits for DWP to return responses to HMCTS. DWP has agreed with the
Tribunal Procedure Committee to introduce time limits to stipulate how long DWP has
to respond to an individual appeal. Their introduction will mean that DWP will have 28
calendar days to provide an appeal response in benefits cases, and 42 calendar
days in child maintenance cases.
When will these changes be introduced?
DWP introduced all three changes for Personal Independence Payment and
Universal Credit in April 2013.
The changes will be introduced for all other DWP-administered benefits and child
maintenance cases from 28 October 2013, and DWP will begin to report against the
time limits from October 2014.
More information about Appeals Reform is available at https://www.gov.uk.

Which I believed I answered in post 26. Are you reading the answers given?