Take action or pay up?

Guys_Dad

The blue sign with the t&c is not clear enough for me to read it. How many minutes does it allow. Also, you need to take another from distance to show where it is situated if you want to dispute its clarity.

Not sure they can claim £160 as any costs would be added at court time if they won and £100 is the accepted maximum that can be claimed but we really need a clear picture of the sign.

The photos they have - how do they show you were over the 90 minutes?

tea_queen

Guys Dad - unfortunately I don't have a clearer picture, I'm waiting to see if a friend has one as he is in same boat as me (letter arrived same day). As this is so long ago and I thought it was done with (foolish I realise now!) I didn't take any further photos and the parking company do not appear to be in operation in the car park now as all signage has been removed last I checked.

So in terms of times, the PCN states they saw the car at 20:07 and issued the PCN at 20:17, so in terms of the times on the small sign at the front of the shop this is 2-12 mins over the 90 mins. Within the small print of the PCN it says 'The driver is required to pay £100 within 28 days of this notice issue date. If paid within 14 days of this notice, then a reduced charge of £60 will be accepted as full and final settlement.' There is then mention of if not paid, may go to court and incur additional charges. So one would presume the sign must reflect (if it did) the £100 price in order to match the PCN.

Coupon-mad - I'm just rereading some of the response letters back and I'm not sure in my appeal that I argued the signage at all (again I have only got the response letters at the moment), I think I argued the charge itself - amazing what you learn through experience! Will it matter at this point if I bring in what is to the court potentially a new reason for appeal, but at the time is one that I may or may not have vocalised?

What may help is that in one of the photos there is actually a picture of one of the '7' signs on the back wall half hidden behind a parked car...

Sorry if I sound as though I'm trying to talk myself out of this, I'm just trying to get a full understanding of what to expect and stop myself getting flustered in a court scenario.

I've found a letter you pointed someone else to here and doctored it, does this fit for me?

Dear Sirs,

Your Ref ##### re: Euro Parking Services PCN ####

I note your Letter Before Claim dated 10th February 2017, received 17th February 2017.

I deny any debt to your client. I will not be telephoning you but require further information in writing.

You cannot presume that I am in possession of all the documents referred to in your letter and I require a copy of the Notice to Driver and Notice to Keeper to inspect so that I can make an informed decision. Please send copies of these and any documents that will be produced in the event of your threatened action, including copies of all photographs taken and evidence of the contract itself (clear evidence of the terms on the signs at the time).

In order to understand my legal position, I also require the following information:

1 Is your client's intended action funded on a contractual charge, a breach of a contract or trespass?
2 What is the basis of the additional £60 charge?
3 If it is for legal services, has your client already paid it?

When I receive the documents and your answers I will be in a position to make a more detailed response and as such, it would be wholly unreasonable and vexatious to proceed in the small claims track at the present time.

Yours Faithfully


Thanks both!

Coupon-mad

Yes that letter will do - and hope (as usual) that they don't reply because their disdain for consumers, the 'overriding objective' and court procedures generally, is part of their downfall in court.

Coupon-mad - I'm just rereading some of the response letters back and I'm not sure in my appeal that I argued the signage at all (again I have only got the response letters at the moment), I think I argued the charge itself - amazing what you learn through experience! Will it matter at this point if I bring in what is to the court potentially a new reason for appeal, but at the time is one that I may or may not have vocalised?

Nope it doesn't matter, because this is a new stage. Defence is not the same as 'appeal' and you can't be expected to have known the 'right' things to say at an early stage against an unwarranted pseudo 'PCN' from a scummy firm who relied upon woefully inadequate signs.

The crucial thing is the defence but TBH Gladstones roboclaims are so generic that defences can be too, in the main. So much so, that the BMPA is working on a generic defence-generator for roboclaims (all cases from Gladstones & BW legal for example). But until that's available, just as good is searching the forum for:

'Gladstones roboclaim defence'

and

'Gladstones preliminary matters'

...either of which will give you some decent defences to open your eyes to the fairly simple stuff that ticks the boxes as and when you get a claim. Later on it needs more specific evidence, a Witness Statement and your photos, but not yet.

Guys_Dad

So you are being charged for parking outside hours when the store was closed. (7.30 pm limit on parking, you were there 45 minutes after)

That would suggest to me that you were trespassing, which, in this scenario, is a good thing. The entrance signs are " forbidding" and when the reply states breach of contract, as well it might and you have to keep labouring this point till you get an answer, then your appeal/defence will be based on that, with our help.

See if other regulars agree

Redx

it doesnt matter what you argued against in the past, your current defence that you are constructing will contain all relevant legal arguments including signage (even if its the first time it is mentioned)

nothing wrong with becoming more clued up due to a court case than in the initial bewildered state when a pcn is received and appealed

even if you had ignored all paperwork until this point , you would still put forward a decent defence with various legal points introduced as you find that they are relevant

you arent the first, you wont be the last , so you dont get mad , you get even , trying to beat them at their own game, finding out the rules of the "game" as you go , and making additions or substitutions from the bench before the deadline to submit the defence

a manager may decide a player is picked for a game , only to find out after 15 minutes that the player has a stomach bug, he didnt know before and the player didnt know or didnt mention it , so the manager changes the team part way through the game (but the aim is still to win by the end)

Coupon-mad

Guys_Dad wrote: »

So you are being charged for parking outside hours when the store was closed. (7.30 pm limit on parking, you were there 45 minutes after)

That would suggest to me that you were trespassing, which, in this scenario, is a good thing. The entrance signs are " forbidding" and when the reply states breach of contract, as well it might and you have to keep labouring this point till you get an answer, then your appeal/defence will be based on that, with our help.

See if other regulars agree

Yep that comes into the defence (not appeal, not now) as well.

No doubt some have already been written recently, found by searching 'Gladstones defence forbidding' or 'Gladstones defence trespass'.

tea_queen

Fantastic, thank you all. I've put that letter together now ready to send tomorrow so I shall wait for my expected court papers as I don't expect them to respond given the past experiences you have mentioned and give you an update (and no doubt ask for advice!) once that happens. I have bookmarked a few useful thread posts and made some notes as a basis so I feel much more positive about the whole thing now.

Thanks again!

Half_way

Please don't panic, and don't worry.
The likes of Gladstones feed on panic and worry, and thats how people pay up.
you have found the right place in learning in how to deal with this, see it as a process, if it helps draw out a flow chart starting with where you are now, and ending with Nothing to pay/Expenses/costs claimed

Gladstones are seen on here,and other parking forums as a joke, however its a very bad joke as people are still getting scared into paying this lot until Will Hurley and John Davies's little operation is shut down the joke will still be an extremely bad one.
And even if Will Hurley and Co follow in the footsteps of Roxburgh odds on they will just re-appear as another similar entity.

Unfortunately the government seems unable or unwilling to take any real meaningful action to curb the excesses of PPCs and the only way out of it, unfortunately would be a high profile case involving a victim coming to serious harm as a result of stress/actions by a PPC

tea_queen

Hi All,

So in response to my letter sent to Gladstones, I received a response that in summary says that the £160 is still outstanding and if not received within 14 days of the letter date (which from the date of letter has now passed, having only received it a week after this), then they are not instructed to enter into further correspondence and a claim will be issued which may result in further costs.

The letter has enclosed the correspondence sent to me and photographic evidence (in response to me asking for all evidence against me), however they have only actually sent the first two letters from 2015 in response to my appeal, and the three photos of the car. Does this mean this is the only evidence they can bring to a court?

Should I respond to this letter still (I'm guessing yes to show willing) even though presumably it will make no difference?

Thanks for your advice

Coupon-mad

The letter has enclosed the correspondence sent to me and photographic evidence (in response to me asking for all evidence against me), however they have only actually sent the first two letters from 2015 in response to my appeal, and the three photos of the car. Does this mean this is the only evidence they can bring to a court?

No it doesn't. They can supply a fuller evidence pack at Witness Statement stage and so can you (e.g. you can go and get fresh photos showing how illegible the terms are and sparse signage).

We would say respond by email telling them their evidence is woeful, that you require all photos taken and evidence that there was a contravention and evidence as to the terms on the sign.