Parking Notice by PCM for Not Displaying Permit

Half_way

As before the lease is all important. The housing will have a management company/organisation that will have taken on/contacted pcm to act as its agents.
In virtually all cases they can not vary the terms of a lease in such a way as to impose a permit scheme.
Technicaly as soon as pcm were told the vehicle was parked with permission of the landowner (that's the resident of the house/fiat) they should have dropped the parking charge.

A permit would only be required if expresly stated in the lease, and even them enforcement would be tricky. If the person has been living there for 20 yearsor so,odds on that there is no requirement to display a permit.

Next question, who says a permit must be displayed?

Also, did you know that if the lease makes no requirement to show a permit, then the registered keepers data could have been obtained without due cause and contrary to the contract the parking company has with the dvla. This could mean that both the management ego took on the parking company and the parking company could have breached the data protection act, meaning you/the registered Keeper could put a claim in for between £250 to £750 against the management company/parking company.

swindon87

Half_way wrote: »

As before the lease is all important. The housing will have a management company/organisation that will have taken on/contacted pcm to act as its agents.
In virtually all cases they can not vary the terms of a lease in such a way as to impose a permit scheme.
Technicaly as soon as pcm were told the vehicle was parked with permission of the landowner (that's the resident of the house/fiat) they should have dropped the parking charge.

A permit would only be required if expresly stated in the lease, and even them enforcement would be tricky. If the person has been living there for 20 yearsor so,odds on that there is no requirement to display a permit.

Next question, who says a permit must be displayed?

Also, did you know that if the lease makes no requirement to show a permit, then the registered keepers data could have been obtained without due cause and contrary to the contract the parking company has with the dvla. This could mean that both the management ego took on the parking company and the parking company could have breached the data protection act, meaning you/the registered Keeper could put a claim in for between £250 to £750 against the management company/parking company.

I believe the PCM may have bought the car park from the council and the permit has been issued by PCM themselves. The sign reads for permit holder only as soon as you enter the car park.

My mum said a few years ago, the received a letter in the post to all the resident who live there that PCM will be taking over the car park and they will all need to apply for a permit. She has been using the same permit since. In the last few months she has also been issued a disabled badge.

In the lease is does not say anything about parking as anyone was free to use the car park before PCM had taken over.

Do you think it is still worth appealing the parking ticket?

swindon87

Coupon-mad wrote: »

I don't say not to give the name and address of the keeper - of course you have to! The template says 'name and address of keeper' at the bottom of the letter.

You just do not name the DRIVER. Not the same thing at all.

Sorry I am confused. The keeper is the driver, no?

Fruitcake

swindon87 wrote: »

Sorry I am confused. The keeper is the driver, no?

NO! You never identify the driver. The keeper is the person who was in charge of the car on the day. This is known as the day to day keeper, and may or may not be the registered keeper.

I still don't believe anyone HAS to display a permit at this location. I suspect the parking scammers were brought in and made up some rules so they could make money from genuine residents and their visitors.
Since there is nothing in the lease then there is no requirement to display a permit at all and the scammers have no right to insist or try to defraud genuine residents or visitors.

Judges have ruled on several occasions that a third party (parking scammers or management agents) cannot add on new terms to an existing contract (lease or AST.)

You should therefore appeal the ticket as advised, but carefully add the bit about no requirement to show a permit without revealing who was driving.

Fruitcake

Some information here about lease/AST trumps PPC made up rules.

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html

Quote the relevant cases, especially Jopson vs Homeguard, in your appeal.

Half_way

When you say council owned housing, are these directly owned by the council, or housing association? .
Also as long as you are honest and truthful on here you have nothing to fear in providing a little more information which will help us to help you.
If you have an address of the flats/housing ( no need to be specific just XYZ Street XYZ Town ) and the location of the car park someone on here may be able to take a closer look, and/or use google earth/street view to see the relation between the housing and the car park.
The only people with anything to fear would be the parking company.

Somewhere there will be a so called management company/agent, this will be the entity that has allowed the Parking company (PCM) to infest the land, this could be the Local councils housing department, or in more modern times the housing association, or agents acting for the housing association/residents.

It is worth noting, and remembering that genuine council owned car parks are usually controlled by statutory legislation, such as a parking places order any permits required to use such council car parks will be issued by the council ( or at least agents of the council) will be clearly marked as Somewhereshire County/District Council and any payments ( real fines) for not displaying a permit will be made payable to the council ( or a department of the council) with an independent appeals service (ie PATAS) to resolve disputes.
PCM are a private parking company (PPC) and as such can pretty much make things up as they go along, while there is a so called appeals service it will not be independent by any stretch of the imagination.
Private parking companies operating in real council car parks do not make a good mix, and when challenged correctly can lead to serious issues for the council.


You said that this is causing stress, dont worry, dont stress. See this as a process to get through.

As previously mentioned there is the opportunity to fight this further and put a claim in under the data protection act, personally I would fight this all the way, however not everyone wants to kick up a big stink ( although in my opinion the whole residential parking/PPC thing needs a severe kick)

Please take a read of this, courtesy of Lynzer on Pepipoo http://www.thebridesmother.co.uk/Media/residential-parking.pdf
and finally
Taking a guess your preferred outcome would be two fold:
1: the cancellation of this charge/parking charge notice
2: steps being taken to ensure that this doesn't happen again
Correct?

swindon87

Fruitcake wrote: »

NO! You never identify the driver. The keeper is the person who was in charge of the car on the day. This is known as the day to day keeper, and may or may not be the registered keeper.

I still don't believe anyone HAS to display a permit at this location. I suspect the parking scammers were brought in and made up some rules so they could make money from genuine residents and their visitors.
Since there is nothing in the lease then there is no requirement to display a permit at all and the scammers have no right to insist or try to defraud genuine residents or visitors.

Judges have ruled on several occasions that a third party (parking scammers or management agents) cannot add on new terms to an existing contract (lease or AST.)

You should therefore appeal the ticket as advised, but carefully add the bit about no requirement to show a permit without revealing who was driving.

This is the sign in the park if that helps:

Coupon-mad

It's not owned by the Council nor PCM, nor do residents 'have to' (under their tenancy agreement) display permits. OP you really need to understand what the facts are here and stop assuming that tenants *have to* display permits just because a third party rocked up and put some signs up, later.

They DID NOT vary her tenancy agreement, because PCM can't. The signage terms do not form part of her agreement, do they?

And PCM do not own any car parks, AFAIK. It will be an ALMO or Housing Association.

swindon87

Coupon-mad wrote: »

It's not owned by the Council nor PCM, nor do residents 'have to' (under their tenancy agreement) display permits. OP you really need to understand what the facts are here and stop assuming that tenants *have to* display permits just because a third party rocked up and put some signs up, later.

They DID NOT vary her tenancy agreement, because PCM can't. The signage terms do not form part of her agreement, do they?

And PCM do not own any car parks, AFAIK. It will be an ALMO or Housing Association.

Is there any way for me to find out who it is owned by?
I'm sure my mum wouldn't want to risk not displaying her permit as she knows she will get a parking ticket and this is the first time this has happened.

Because my mother had lived here such a long time she doesn't know whether parking was included in her tenancy agreement or not. All she knows is that the car park used to be free for anyone to park there. Then a few years ago PCM sent a letter to all the residents stating that they need a permit now to park in the car park.

If the car park had nothing to do with her tenancy agreement then, what?

swindon87

Half_way wrote: »

When you say council owned housing, are these directly owned by the council, or housing association? .
Also as long as you are honest and truthful on here you have nothing to fear in providing a little more information which will help us to help you.
If you have an address of the flats/housing ( no need to be specific just XYZ Street XYZ Town ) and the location of the car park someone on here may be able to take a closer look, and/or use google earth/street view to see the relation between the housing and the car park.
The only people with anything to fear would be the parking company.

Somewhere there will be a so called management company/agent, this will be the entity that has allowed the Parking company (PCM) to infest the land, this could be the Local councils housing department, or in more modern times the housing association, or agents acting for the housing association/residents.

It is worth noting, and remembering that genuine council owned car parks are usually controlled by statutory legislation, such as a parking places order any permits required to use such council car parks will be issued by the council ( or at least agents of the council) will be clearly marked as Somewhereshire County/District Council and any payments ( real fines) for not displaying a permit will be made payable to the council ( or a department of the council) with an independent appeals service (ie PATAS) to resolve disputes.
PCM are a private parking company (PPC) and as such can pretty much make things up as they go along, while there is a so called appeals service it will not be independent by any stretch of the imagination.
Private parking companies operating in real council car parks do not make a good mix, and when challenged correctly can lead to serious issues for the council.


You said that this is causing stress, dont worry, dont stress. See this as a process to get through.

As previously mentioned there is the opportunity to fight this further and put a claim in under the data protection act, personally I would fight this all the way, however not everyone wants to kick up a big stink ( although in my opinion the whole residential parking/PPC thing needs a severe kick)

Please take a read of this, courtesy of Lynzer on Pepipoo http://www.thebridesmother.co.uk/Media/residential-parking.pdf
and finally
Taking a guess your preferred outcome would be two fold:
1: the cancellation of this charge/parking charge notice
2: steps being taken to ensure that this doesn't happen again
Correct?

The flats are directly owned by the council, not housing association. My mothers tenancy agreement is with the council and it has always been that way.

This is the Google map location for the car park, hopefully someone will be able to give me some insight on it and it seems I am clueless: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/Avenue+Rd,+London,+England/@51.5052045,-0.2720348,3a,75y,209.29h,92.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sImkmRC0PwlqcsqZWfkanSQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

I definitely want to fight this parking ticket for my mother, as this is the last thing she needs at the moment. The whole parking situation is very bad and needs to be addressed. I will have a good read of the link you sent me to get a better understanding.

Thank you.