Legal or general boundary when keeping access clear?

bluebell74

G_M - i agree. Everything he says could be nonsense but it's a neighbour and I'm trying to keep things civil so haven't challenged him directly.
The deeds seem to indicate he has a right to come onto our road for maintenance, no-one would disagree with that.

Apologies for the lack of detail I'll try to answer from what i can see on our paperwork:

1) where is your ROW documented?
The copy of register of title is all i have

2) what exactly (word for word) does your ROW say?
(1946) Together with such rights of way as are at present enjoyed in connection with the said property and particularly a right of way for the purchasers and their successors in title and their tenants owners and occupiers for the time being of the property hereby conveyed and all persons authorised by them in common with all other persons for the time being being entitles to a similar right at all times and for all purposes and either with or without horses carts carriages motor cars and other vehicles over and along the existing private road upon which the property hereby abuts to'
3) Is his property registered? If so, have you purchased his Title and Plan? What does it say and show? Yes i've found this
'Together also with a right of way at all times and for all purposes for the Purchaser and his heirs and assigns and for the owners and occupiers for the time being of the said hereditaments hereby assured over and along the piece of land forming a side road or passage situate on the East side of the said hereditamants And also the right to use the drain and inspection chamber on the said last mentioned piece of land'

4) if not registered, have you askd him to show you his deeds? What do they say and show?
5) Who owns the private road? The other residents and I own it

I'm coming to the conclusion he needs to do this but want to be backed up for when i get the rebuttal!

moneyistooshorttomention

teddysmum wrote: »

If there is danger to children, the council may intervene.


Some years ago, a house near my son's school had a hedge which grew over the pavement, leaving only enough room for children to walk in single file and forcing mum's with pushchairs to walk on the road. Parents objected , via the school, and the hedge was cut back to the house's boundary, giving room to walk three abreast on the pavement.

Would a Council interfere at the thought of danger to anyone and everyone? - or do they restrict themselves to only being concerned about children?

There is a disability element coming into this as well I would think - ie suppose a blind person walks up there and walks straight into the hedge?

I'm wondering what plants that hedge consists of? Could be sloes? Could be holly? Could be hawthorn? Could be blackberries? None of which I would fancy walking into - particularly if bits of it were projecting at head height.

moneyistooshorttomention

Your paperwork says "road" - not "part of road" or "side of road".

Personally - I'd just get on and trim it myself (making sure the trimmings are neatly packaged up and placed back on land you are certain is his).

What's your worst case analysis? The police coming along and saying "Naughty...naughty....wag fingers....don't do it again". In other words - not much.

bouicca21

I find it difficult to believe that the deeds are accurate enough to distinguish between a legal and a 'general' boundary. If you have a RoW then you must surely have the right to prevent obstruction. and I suspect you'd better trim the bushes back soon as come spring he'll be telling you there are nesting birds and it really will be illegal to disturb them.

G_M

1) So your deeds make clear you have a ROW for " horses carts carriages motor cars and other vehicles" so that does not limit the size of vehicle. If the hedge is obstructing to the extent that an 'other vehicle' could not pass (eg a frire engine, 4x4 etc) then your ROW is being breached.

2) you did not really answer the Q about his deeds: What does his Title Plan show regarding the boundary of his property? Where is it?

3) you did not really answer the Q about the private road deeds: What does the Title Plan show regarding the boundary of the road? Where is it?

Since you say "The other residents and I own it (the road), what do the other residents feel about the hedge? Have you discussed? Why not get together and pay a contractor to tidy up the road (whatever else might need doing) including cuting the overhanging hedge. Should cost peanuts between you for half a day or 1 day's work.

bluebell74

That's helpful thanks, G_M

The boundary of his property in red is alongside the house wall and a couple of feet from where he says the legal boundary is (and where several of the bushes have grown out to) - that's my main question really as he will keep saying it's the legal boundary that matters, not the general one shown by the LR deeds

I don't have info on the boundary of the road and am not sure how to get this.

moneyistooshorttomention

If he wants to keep arguing that there are two boundaries - ie the boundary and the "legal boundary" - as opposed to the one boundary the rest of us have

- then you could always call his bluff and ask him for his surveyor's report that has identified his boundary to within 4" (rather than the 18" I think it is for the rest of us). I would be asking for this document he purports to have - as I don't believe for one moment he has such a document.

As I recall - if one wants a boundary fixed more precisely than the Land Registry one (what he is calling the "general boundary") then a surveyor is paid for and they will determine it rather more precisely - but still not absolutely exactly literally to fraction of an inch.

*********

The other thought I have would go along the lines of telling him that people do use the whole width of the road - as pedestrians/in vehicles/etc and he could be finding himself on the receiving end of a compensation claim if someone walks straight into part of his hedge and injures themselves.

After all - we can all (apparently) even get sued by a burglar :eek: in the process of trespassing on property that most definitely is ours (ie our garden wall) if they injure themselves on something nice and sharp we have put on what is indisputably our own wall. So - he wants to think on about putting people at risk like that and not fulfilling his "duty of care".

Davesnave

He's just a twit.

I have a private lane about 100m long running parallel to my property, and although there's nothing in the deeds, I have the boundary hedge cut annually as a matter of courtesy. I have my council road hedges cut at the same time.

With the road hedges, if I failed to keep them under control, the council would come along, do the work and then send me a huge bill for it, so it's much better to behave responsibly!

I wouldn't care what the guy said, I'd get a tractor-mounted flail in and tell him that if he wants it 'pretty' he should do it himself in future!

G_M

This stuff about the 'legal boundary' is a load of tosh.

If he believes the boundary is somewhere other than what the LR PLan show, then he should produce the documentation to prove it.

Failing that, proceed on the basis of the LR Plan.

If you do a 'map enquiry' here on the Land registry site, it will show up the Title for the road, assuming it is registered land. Look at the Plan to see where the boundary of the road is.

The way forward is to try to amicably agree for the bushes to be cut back (by him, you or your contractor), ideally involving agreement by the other owners as well.

If agreement cannot be reached and he sticks to his 'claim', then you insist on evidence, and if/when that is not produced you simpy cut back the bushes that overhang/impinge on your road.

bluebell74

You're right
I need to go and request them to cut back to a sensible position and if he comes back with the same response say i'd like to see evidence of it but that in any case we are entitled to pass by without hinderance so will carry it out
I am not great with confrontation and have to live close to these people, hence my reticence. It's slightly ridiculous that we all complain collectively but seem to put up with it unnecessarily.

Appreciate your inputs, thank you.