Halifax & FOS Rejected PPI Claim

sandrai

I found out I had PPI cover with Halifax mortgage when they sent me a refund for an over payment one month, I did the SAR etc and got all details as I advised them at the time I did not want to take the cover and this is shown quite clearly on their screen printouts.

Halifax said I need the cover so it was put in place.

I explained to FOS their system show quite clearly I did not want it I had cover for sickness, in death service, life & critical illness insurance, personnel accident cover etc.

One member of FOS advised that Halifax cannot produce the agreements from the point of sale, another says halifax can prove I asked for the cover but I have every item from the start of my agreement and there is nothing there apart from two entries advising I did not want the cover,

FOS came back to me yesterday again and advised they will not uphold my complaint as the only cover I did not have was for unemployment they advised I would have need the cover,

I have had the same employer since 1993 this policy was supposed to be taken out in 2008 when additional funds for extension was taken and cancelled in 2011. I still work for the same company.

they do say however.

"When we last got in touch, we mentioned the Supreme Court judgment in the case of Plevin v Paragon Personal Finance. And we explained the Financial Conduct Authority are thinking about bringing in some new rules and guidance on how businesses should handle PPI complaints affected by the court’s ruling.

We’re still working through what all of this might mean for your case - and we’ll be in touch as soon as we can to let you know what we think is fair. But this isn’t straightforward - so it’s still likely to be many months before we can do this.

In the meantime, if you still disagree with what I’ve said so far - or if you’ve got any questions - please let us know and we’ll be happy to help.


Adjudicator"


should I just give up?

dunstonh

One member of FOS advised that Halifax cannot produce the agreements from the point of sale, another says halifax can prove I asked for the cover but I have every item from the start of my agreement and there is nothing there apart from two entries advising I did not want the cover,

Agreements are irrelevant as they will just be an application form. It is not a credit agreement like loan or credit card PPI.

FOS came back to me yesterday again and advised they will not uphold my complaint as the only cover I did not have was for unemployment they advised I would have need the cover,

This would suggest they have done an analysis of what you said you had and found you did not hold excessive cover. Most people under insure. A very quick and dirty figure used is 10x salary plus debts for life assurance. 4x salary plus debts for Critical illness cover. PPI doesnt overlap with either of those. So, not really an issue and you didnt have unemployment cover so there was nothing to overlap there.

I have had the same employer since 1993 this policy was supposed to be taken out in 2008 when additional funds for extension was taken and cancelled in 2011. I still work for the same company.

plenty of people have suffered redundancy after working with the same company for decades. I have two employees who spent 30 years with their old company before it closed down.

"When we last got in touch, we mentioned the Supreme Court judgment in the case of Plevin v Paragon Personal Finance. And we explained the Financial Conduct Authority are thinking about bringing in some new rules and guidance on how businesses should handle PPI complaints affected by the court’s ruling.

We’re still working through what all of this might mean for your case - and we’ll be in touch as soon as we can to let you know what we think is fair. But this isn’t straightforward - so it’s still likely to be many months before we can do this.

In the meantime, if you still disagree with what I’ve said so far - or if you’ve got any questions - please let us know and we’ll be happy to help.

Plevin is unlikely to apply to mortgage PPI as the commission rates on that are lower (typically around 25-30%. Highest I have seen was 37%. They have to exceed 50% for plevin to apply)

should I just give up?

You need to be aware that MPPI suffers fewer issues than loan or credit card PPI. Indeed, MPPI is one of two types of PPI still available to buy today. It is considered more important because of the debt it is covering. It is also normally set up correctly (monthly premium standalone direct debit). If all PPI was set up that way, it would unlikely have caused the PPI issue.

Most MPPI complaints are rejected. Unlike loan and credit card PPI where most are upheld. Halifax tend to rollover quite easily on PPI, even MPPI (they tend to payout on the PPI part but not the life assurance or CIC or income protection parts, if held - none of those bits being PPI after all). So, for them to argue a case with the FOS suggests they are in a strong position.

quaybab

I'd ask the FOS for all the case file from Halifax first and see what the facts are.

Nasqueron

quaybab wrote: »

I'd ask the FOS for all the case file from Halifax first and see what the facts are.

The FOS will publish the details of the case for the OP if they ask and will explain why they rejected it but they would have done that anyway in the letter rejecting it, OP won't gain anything else. Remember they need to prove it was miss-sold, not for the bank to prove it wasn't - the OP did not have unemployment cover and the MPPI covered unemployment.

Working for a company for a long time is no guarantee of anything, if the market collapses or whatever people can lose jobs. The only accepted "secure" job is the police.

sandrai

Thanks for your reply. When I took the loan I advised I did not want cover and that was entered on their system. I was advised to think about it overnight and get back to them. I did so and said no we do not want it.
As advised my partner had long service history I had two jobs one self employed and the other 27 hours a week as a health care assistant.
This policy was put through for him only even though we rejected their advice. why were we not informed at the time they were putting the policy in place when we said no?
We had the following in place as well.

L
1) Life Assurance cover with AGEAS via AIG life - covered for £200,000.00 each (Myself & husband)


2) Gold Policy - Personnal Accident, death and hospitalison cover with AIG Direct for Husband, children & myself. I have enclosed a copy of the booklet as

there is different amounts for each senario.


3) Also had inservice death cover with each of our work.


4) OH has an additional policy where he pays a one off fee each year if he is off sick he gets a weekly allowance of £100 on top of SSP.


5) We also have fully comp car insurance which covers legal protection , cover for loss of earnings and personnal accident cover.

Nasqueron

None of those cover unemployment

This is all irrelevant though, there is no point telling is this info. Either refer the case to the Ombudsman (the level above an adjudicator) or accept it was not miss-sold - those are your 2 options.

dunstonh

As advised my partner had long service history I had two jobs one self employed and the other 27 hours a week as a health care assistant.

All that does is confirm that you are suitable to have PPI. It helps them, not you.

This policy was put through for him only even though we rejected their advice. why were we not informed at the time they were putting the policy in place when we said no?

That is a mis-sale but one that is hard to prove. If you complained within months of it happening as you saw it on your statement, you are then a very credible complainant. Even with no evidence to support your complaint, the fact you raised it early would increase your credibility.

As the years go on and it appears on each monthly bank statement, you become less credible when making that sort of complaint. So, available evidence trumps what becomes an unprovable allegation.

1) Life Assurance cover with AGEAS via AIG life - covered for £200,000.00 each (Myself & husband)

No overlap with PPI. So irrelevant.

2) Gold Policy - Personnal Accident, death and hospitalison cover with AIG Direct for Husband, children & myself. I have enclosed a copy of the booklet as

there is different amounts for each senario.

No overlap with PPI. So irrelevant.

3) Also had inservice death cover with each of our work.

No overlap with PPI. So irrelevant.

4) OH has an additional policy where he pays a one off fee each year if he is off sick he gets a weekly allowance of £100 on top of SSP.

Could be relevant depending on the term and amount that is payable. Sounds non-standard though and non standard plans tend to be poor quality. This may work with a loan or credit card PPI but unlikely to be good enough for a secured debt.

5) We also have fully comp car insurance which covers legal protection , cover for loss of earnings and personnal accident cover.

No overlap with PPI. So irrelevant.

When there is a lack of evidence to support your allegations, the complaint will move on to whether the plan was suitable or not. From what you have said, it was suitable for you.

sandrai

Hello ,

I asked the FOS for the case details submitted by the Halifax as at one point they said they had proof I asked for the insurance and the second time they said they could not find my details.

I have screen printouts from the Halifax with the date and their employees name updating my account advising I said I did not need the policy.

This is the reply I got today from the FOS.

Dear Mrs XXXXXX

Thank you for your email dated 8 February 2017.

Unfortunately due to the length of time since the policy was sold, Bank of Scotland has been unable to provide us with any documentation from the point of sale. However based on what we know about Bank of Scotland’s sales process around this time and the standard sales documents we’ve seen for these types of policies, we think they would’ve made the optional nature clear when the policy was sold.

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us.

Yours sincerely

Priyanka Sharma | Adjudicator
Financial Ombudsman Service

This loan was only taken out in 2008 but they have recently send me full agreements and statements for an account I opened in 1994 and closed in 2004?

Do I reject her decision and point out again I have shown I rejected their policy and have shown them evidence of this.

Also under section s77-79 Consumer Credit Act 1974 if they cannot provided any documents was mis-selling of PPI policies or whether I can establish a claim under the newly introduced unfair relationship provisions.

Also if they cannot produce this document how can they prove the agreement is enforceable and they were entitles add charges and change interest rates on the account.

[Deleted User]

Your complaint has been rejected now both by the Bank and the Ombudsman. This means that you have exhausted all complaint avenues available to you.

You could try taking the Bank to court, but do please be sure of the validity of any evidence you produce. Earlier, you paraded a whole host of insurance policies none of which had any overlap with PPI. Now you are hoping that the Bank's failure to produce original Agreement documentation will somehow aid your case. It won't, as already explained in post # 2 of this thread.

I'm also not sure on what basis "Unfair Relationship Provision" is applicable to a PPI complaint?

dunstonh

This loan was only taken out in 2008 but they have recently send me full agreements and statements for an account I opened in 1994 and closed in 2004?

Paper filing can be like that.

Also under section s77-79 Consumer Credit Act 1974 if they cannot provided any documents was mis-selling of PPI policies or whether I can establish a claim under the newly introduced unfair relationship provisions.

Plevin may well apply if the PPI commission was above 50% and you will get refunded on the amount above that later this year. However, that is all. Your mis-sale complaint was rejected. The agreement does not matter.

Also if they cannot produce this document how can they prove the agreement is enforceable and they were entitles add charges and change interest rates on the account.

If the cannot product the agreement then they can use a reconstituted copy. They cannot enforce it via the courts but if you stop paying it, they can and will register it as a default on your credit file. The courts already ruled on that some years ago and the decision took down a number of claims companies that thought the same as you.

Google does not make you a solicitor.

Nasqueron

Moneyineptitude wrote: »

Your complaint has been rejected now both by the Bank and the Ombudsman. This means that you have exhausted all complaint avenues available to you.

You could try taking the Bank to court, but do please be sure of the validity of any evidence you produce. Earlier, you paraded a whole host of insurance policies none of which had any overlap with PPI. Now you are hoping that the Bank's failure to produce original Agreement documentation will somehow aid your case. It won't, as already explained in post # 2 of this thread.

I'm also not sure on what basis "Unfair Relationship Provision" is applicable to a PPI complaint?

The letter implies an adjudicator not the ombudsman, OP will need to clarify this as they may have the option to go further but likely a fruitless task as they seem to have ignored everything they have been told up to now and reverted to their original unprovable claim