Running Flue through Property Above - Illegal?

Hoploz

Have you had any discussions with a building inspector about the best course regarding options that would enable the existing flue to comply?
Boy this does seem an awful situation to be in

ComicGeek

elstimpo wrote: »

This is Gas Safe reply;

"Thank you for your enquiry, this can be a problem as the Building Regulations say if a flue passes through another property that it must be in a fire rated duct that separates it from the property it is passing through to prevent the spread of fire, this conflicts with the requirements of Gas Regulations which require that the entire flue be visually inspected when it is serviced or repaired, so it’s not illegal but difficult to comply with"

So you could install fire rated access panels within a dedicated fire rated riser, through which the engineer would be able to inspect the flue. However, trying to get your neighbour upstairs to agree to losing a chunk of their flat to run your flue, and having to have people access their flat to inspect on a regular basis, and a higher risk of carbon monoxide poisoning would in my view being nearly possible.

As the board said, you don't have a legal right to have a gas boiler - listed building trumps everything, but doesn't mean that you can circumvent gas regulations, it unfortunately means that you just can't install gas.

elstimpo

ComicGeek wrote: »

So you could install fire rated access panels within a dedicated fire rated riser, through which the engineer would be able to inspect the flue. However, trying to get your neighbour upstairs to agree to losing a chunk of their flat to run your flue, and having to have people access their flat to inspect on a regular basis, and a higher risk of carbon monoxide poisoning would in my view being nearly possible.

As the board said, you don't have a legal right to have a gas boiler - listed building trumps everything, but doesn't mean that you can circumvent gas regulations, it unfortunately means that you just can't install gas.

I have existing vents in the wall that a boiler / flue can be hooked up to.

I can get planning permission from heritage, gas safe say it's complaint with their guidlines, meets building regs, the boiler manufacturer has visited the site and given it the thumbs up and two gas safe plumbers say it's fine.

A bunch of 5 diots with absolutely no qualifications on this subject what so ever yet have ultimate power have rejected that solution in favour of the one that fails all guidlines and criterea and no gas safe plumber will do the work as they dont think it would be safe and comply with building regs.

I simply cannot believe the situation i'm in !

always_sunny

elstimpo wrote: »

I have existing vents in the wall that a boiler / flue can be hooked up to.

I can get planning permission from heritage, gas safe say it's complaint with their guidlines, meets building regs, the boiler manufacturer has visited the site and given it the thumbs up and two gas safe plumbers say it's fine.

A bunch of 5 diots with absolutely no qualifications on this subject what so ever yet have ultimate power have rejected that solution in favour of the one that fails all guidlines and criterea and no gas safe plumber will do the work as they dont think it would be safe and comply with building regs.

I simply cannot believe the situation i'm in !

You may call their decision idiotic, though that's what the board decided. Were you not aware there was a board before buying the property?

I can sympathise with the issue but you do have other option to heat up the place. What recourse do you have? Could you appeal their decision?

martinsurrey

elstimpo wrote: »

I have existing vents in the wall that a boiler / flue can be hooked up to.

I can get planning permission from heritage, gas safe say it's complaint with their guidlines, meets building regs, the boiler manufacturer has visited the site and given it the thumbs up and two gas safe plumbers say it's fine.

A bunch of 5 diots with absolutely no qualifications on this subject what so ever yet have ultimate power have rejected that solution in favour of the one that fails all guidlines and criterea and no gas safe plumber will do the work as they dont think it would be safe and comply with building regs.

I simply cannot believe the situation i'm in !

you are talking about the vents flush with the wall in your picture?

Are you sure your plumbers are suggesting keeping the current grills in place and concealing the vent in the wall behind them?

Are they not suggesting removing the flush grill and installing a protruding vent?

I cant believe at all that they are suggesting it can be kept as is, the exhaust will condense on the grills and soak the wall, exactly as the board seem to be implying.

If I am right, the board is not really doing anything wrong imo.

One of the reasons listed buildings, especially leasehold are a nightmare

C_Mababejive

In order to install a new boiler flue to the existing vents as shown in the pics, you would have to remove one of the vents and pass the concentric flue asembly of the boiler thorugh that hole and make good. The other vent would have to be sealed to prevent re-entry of flue gases.

Modern flue assemblies are fairly unobtrusive and shouldnt present an issue. A plume adaptor fitting could be used to direct the plume away from the building facade.

Presumably there are other ground floor buildings which have similar fluing arrangments i.e straight up through the top floor?

What will THEY do as they will eventually face the same problem? If so, they could perhaps be engaged as allies?

I am not sure that using the existing flue enclosure would do as has been suggested, it would have to be uprated and further, the inspection hatches would have to be available for inspection every time the boiler was maintained/serviced. That is impractical since the upstairs residents would not allow it.

elstimpo

martinsurrey wrote: »

you are talking about the vents flush with the wall in your picture?

Are you sure your plumbers are suggesting keeping the current grills in place and concealing the vent in the wall behind them?

Are they not suggesting removing the flush grill and installing a protruding vent?

I cant believe at all that they are suggesting it can be kept as is, the exhaust will condense on the grills and soak the wall, exactly as the board seem to be implying.

If I am right, the board is not really doing anything wrong imo.

One of the reasons listed buildings, especially leasehold are a nightmare

One of the big issues with putting a flue through the wall of a listed building is the fact you have to drill holes through it. What i am being advised is that these holes in the wall already exist in the shape of these existing vents and that the grills would be removed and two appropriate exists for the flue would be installed. One has to protrude out a certina distance and the other protrude out a certain distant and then drop down.

We own the leasehold and each property owner is shareholder. The board is elected by shareholders. It's very complicated as the development consists of 13 properties inside the listed building and 18 new builds that sit in the grounds of the development.

The man who runs the board keeps everyone in the new builds happy so they will keep him on the board and he can run it to his own personal gain. There have been huge issues with apartments in the main building and he hasnt helped one little bit. I dont know of an owner inside the main building who wants him in this position of authority.

One of the flats has sat empty for 3 years because they have same issues i have and the board wont help.

elstimpo

C_Mababejive wrote: »

In order to install a new boiler flue to the existing vents as shown in the pics, you would have to remove one of the vents and pass the concentric flue asembly of the boiler thorugh that hole and make good. The other vent would have to be sealed to prevent re-entry of flue gases.

Modern flue assemblies are fairly unobtrusive and shouldnt present an issue. A plume adaptor fitting could be used to direct the plume away from the building facade.

Presumably there are other ground floor buildings which have similar fluing arrangments i.e straight up through the top floor?

What will THEY do as they will eventually face the same problem? If so, they could perhaps be engaged as allies?

I am not sure that using the existing flue enclosure would do as has been suggested, it would have to be uprated and further, the inspection hatches would have to be available for inspection every time the boiler was maintained/serviced. That is impractical since the upstairs residents would not allow it.

I've had two gas safe plumbers and the boiler manufacturer on site to inspect the use of the existing flues and yes they would have to be adapted but they have alla declared that this is no problem and within building & gas safe regualtions.

There are 6 ground floor apartments.

1) Sorted out a new boiler and flue to run up through the property above with inspeciton hatches before building regulations changed. Owners live abroad and don't answer emails.

2) Guy who is head of the board. At one stage was illegally renting his property out without a gas saftey certificate and when he got wind i was aware of this, had work done to run new flue up through apartment above with inspection hatches. Refuses to give any information about the work he had done, how it was done and how it complies with building regulations & gas safe guidlines.

3) Direct access to roof

4) Existing boiler and flue still working and has not been condemned. This property will face the same issues very soon.

5) Me.

6) Sat empty for 3 years with the same exact problems i have. Flat fallen into disrepair.

elstimpo

always_sunny wrote: »

I can sympathise with the issue but you do have other option to heat up the place. What recourse do you have? Could you appeal their decision?

We've had electric plug in heaters running 24/7 since May 2016. I have a son with breathing difficulties which has been a real challenge during winter months.

I'm trying to apply pressure by getting more and more experts to state that their chosen method is dangerous. If that doesnt work there are three options.

1) Abandon the property until someone with half a brain and wants to comply with gas safe is on the board.

2) Install electric boiler and take the subsequent hit on the value of our property.

3) Take legal advice and spend £££ chanlleging the decision.

martinsurrey

elstimpo wrote: »

One of the big issues with putting a flue through the wall of a listed building is the fact you have to drill holes through it. What i am being advised is that these holes in the wall already exist in the shape of these existing vents and that the grills would be removed and two appropriate exists for the flue would be installed. One has to protrude out a certina distance and the other protrude out a certain distant and then drop down.

There is your miss-understanding of listed buildings.

The issue is the increased divergence of the exterior of the building from when it was listed, and from what it was originally.

Any changes should make the building look more like it looked when it was built (and no worse). The current vents are small, a shade of stone and flush, your replacements would be protruding and black/silver.

you have existing holes for windows, but that doesn't mean you can put purple chunky UPVC window frames into a listed building, the same applies here.