Tribunal Question?

SuzieJ83

I was awarded 0 points for PIP last year after getting high rate DLA both parts for several years. Mandatory Consideration changed nothing, so I am going to a tribunal.

I struggled to get help to prepare for the tribunal as no one from CAB or Welfare Rights could help me, so had to do it myself, but managed in the end. Have been forwarding additional evidence to the court as and when I had it.

Now I have my date for court, all along I asked for a paper based decision as my mental health was not stable enough for me to attend. The papers sent confirming date say if I do not attend by 11am, they will hear the case on paper, so I do have the option of attending but cannot decide if this is the right thing for me to do.

Rang my local welfare rights, but once again there is no one who can attend the appointment next month. I have no one else who can go with me, neither family or friends and I do not feel up to attending myself, the F2F assessment was horrible for me as it is. I am a very isolated person.

Do I push myself and risk the consequences afterwards or just hope I get a fair hearing on paper. I have no mental health support these days due to cutbacks, but my GP has been very supportive this last few months and I wonder if she would do me a supporting letter if I ask her at my next appointment.

I sent lots of evidence with my additional paperwork and have forwarded on other letters since.

I am claiming on ground of mental health as well as some physical difficulties. The majority of my claim is based on the inaccuracies reported by the person doing the F2F, much was ignored and incorrectly reported.

pmlindyloo

These are my thoughts.

A tribunal is usually nowhere near as stressful as a face to face assessment. Having said that there re always the exceptions.

Since you seem to be claiming mainly on mental health grounds and already have stated that you would like a paper based decision then I would be wary of attending on your own. This may either give the impression that you can manage or be so detrimental to your health that you would suffer the consequences.

On balance and according to the statistics attending in person gives you a better chance of getting a positive outcome. BUT, my suggestion would be to either keep on trying to get someone to go with you (have you tried the Red Cross volunteer service or your local MIND?) or asking your doctor to write a letter explaining that you cannot get anyone to accompany you and in their opinion it would be detrimental to your health to attend alone.

tyler2027

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/10829/




is it possible to request that the tribunal considers using a phone meeting or Skype to talk to you?

Alice_Holt

Contact the Tribunal Service (TS), explain your difficulties and ask if a telephone hearing could be arranged (per tyler2027).

Follow up with a supplementary submission to the TS explaining why, although you would prefer to have the opportunity to explain to the tribunal the difficulties that your disabilities bring to day-to-day life and the PIP activities, these same disabilities are likely to preclude you from attending.

If you haven't already submitted it, a supporting letter from your GP would be hugely important (especially for a paper hearing). Be mindful that paper evidence needs to be with the TS about 10 days before the hearing date.
It is better if your medical evidence can reference the PIP activities (see http://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-win-pip-appeal). If you attend the hearing you can hand (short) items of medical evidence to the clerk on the day (such as a letter from your GP).

As pmlinyloo says an oral hearing is much more likely to be successful than a paper hearing.
You can arrange taxi to get to/from the tribunal and reclaim the cost from the TS. Again phone the TS for more info.
As you attended the medical assessment, I would suggest you do attend the tribunal (or have the TS agree to a telephone hearing).
If you were on high rate DLA before then it's likely the PIP assessment may have been flawed.
Explaining at the hearing is your chance to get an incorrect decision overturned.

Be aware of the activities, descriptors, and points. Know where you score the necessary points to get an award. (See - http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system). Have examples / illustrations around the relevant descriptors to tell the tribunal. (Or supply this to the tribunal in written format by post for a paper hearing - for a paper hearing it is essential that you supply compelling written / medical evidence).

Some info here on the hearing:
http://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-win-pip-appeal - 'What should I do on the day?'
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-appeals - what happens at the tribunal
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/appeals/your-hearing/

Good Luck

rockingbilly

tyler2027 wrote: »

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/10829/
is it possible to request that the tribunal considers using a phone meeting or Skype to talk to you?

Apart from a 'paper' assessment where both sides (DWP & Claimant) submit their case in writing, how can it be possible for the claimant to avoid a face to face hearing - say skype or telephone when by that action it could well be argued by the DWP that it in doing so the possibility of rebuttal by the presenting officer not to mention the cross examination cannot take place - it seems very one sided.
I would imagine that the DWP may well object on the grounds of unfairness if they are not allowed to argue their case but the claimant can.
I wonder how many claimants would be happy if their side of the case is to be based on paper only yet the DWP's prosecutor be allowed to have a one to one with the Tribunal panel.
A very tricky situation from the DWP's point of view.

densol_2

I won my appeal for PIP on a paper hearing. I received enhanced care and standard mobility. I explained in a letter in the nicest possible way that I was too mentally unwell to attend and if that meant I would lose then I would rather lose than risk the damage ( serious self harm ) that would happen to me by 1) attending and 2) the worrying about attending beforehand. I had very good and substantial medical evidence ( by 6-7 different professionals ) and a decent understanding tribunal bench

tyler2027

rockingbilly wrote: »

Apart from a 'paper' assessment where both sides (DWP & Claimant) submit their case in writing, how can it be possible for the claimant to avoid a face to face hearing - say skype or telephone when by that action it could well be argued by the DWP that it in doing so the possibility of rebuttal by the presenting officer not to mention the cross examination cannot take place - it seems very one sided.
I would imagine that the DWP may well object on the grounds of unfairness if they are not allowed to argue their case but the claimant can.
I wonder how many claimants would be happy if their side of the case is to be based on paper only yet the DWP's prosecutor be allowed to have a one to one with the Tribunal panel.
A very tricky situation from the DWP's point of view.

---

1) Skype and telephone participation takes place during the tribunal meeting so the claimant can answer questions put forward as they would if they were physically present.


2) often the DWP does not send a representative, there is no prosecutor, it is not a criminal court. They are not the ones who are questioning the claimant. Its the panels job to look at the paper evidence and verbal answers and clarify any discrepencies.


3)https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3553-virtual-abolition-of-pip-dla-and-esa-appeal-tribunals-as-we-know-them


as you can see from the link above, although currently in the consultation stage, it is virtualy certain that all types of appeal tribunals will be going digital. The budget for the tribunal service is going to be halved so they are making drastic changes. Three chair panel is likely to be just one person. More cases decided on paper, and those that cant will be more likely to be virtual hearings - phone or Skype.


4) "A very tricky situation from the DWP's point of view". Currently, if there's no way a claimant feels they can attend in person, evidence via Skype or phone gives them a better chance than a paper appeal. The fact that the tribunal accepts such a request is recognition of the problems that claimant faces. However, in the future, under the digital system it will advantage the DWP/government. Firstly, more claims will be dealt on paper - which we know have significantly lower success rates. Those cases that make it to a digital hearing will be based on not enough evidence to do it on paper/conflicting evidence etc, and having a default position of digital hearings means no recognition of a claimants lack of ability to attend.
Furthermore, the DWP are hiring specific case officers to go through paperwork more thoroughly, and be more proactive in finding "faults" for either paper/virtual tribunal. The aim is to have far fewer face to face tribunals. Currently, a lot of tribunals don't even have a DWP rep attending. Maybe that's down to the logistics of not enough staff. Virtual tribunals will mean that the DWP can have more case officers specifically hired to do nothing but defend cases - not cross examining, but pointing out technicalities from the paperwork/evidence that weaken a claimants case.

Also, if you read the link above, it explains all the advantages the DWP gain, and the disadvantages to the claimants. So to sum up, at the moment Skype/phone is utilised as a way of helping claimants. In the future, the DWP will be advantaged by the virtual system.

Alice_Holt

Totally agree with Tyler2027 "often the DWP does not send a representative, there is no prosecutor, it is not a criminal court. They are not the ones who are questioning the claimant."

Tribunal panels (when I have attended) are very careful to treat appellants carefully and gently. To get the information they need, in order to make the correct legal decision, they do their best to put the claimant at ease. They are well versed in dealing with appellants who are extremely anxious, depressed, social phobic, etc.

If they "cross-questioned" them as rockingbilly has mistakenly asserted, the appellant would clam up and the panel would not get the oral evidence of the appellants day-to-day life that they require.
The panel will be thorough, but rockingbilly's depiction of a tribunal hearing is very inaccurate.

I do hope nobody will be deterred from attending at tribunal because of his post.

From: https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2016/november/our-response-ministry-justice-consultation-panel-composition-tribunals
"Personal Independence Payment (PIP) and Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) First Tier Tribunal appeals have a high rate of success.

DWP statistics for April 2015 to April 2016 show that as well as PIP appeals remaining continuously high that 65% of PIP appeals are decided in the claimant's favour.
In addition, the latest DWP statistics show that 59% of ESA appeals are successful.

In its recent investigation, Decision Making and Mandatory Reconsideration (July 2016), the Social Security Advisory Committee considered evidence of the primary reasons for appeal tribunals overturning DWP decisions and concluded that –

“… the data suggest that cogent oral evidence provided is critical to decisions being changed at tribunal”.


See also: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/12/online-benefits-appeals-tribunals-disabled
"Although the MoJ states it does not collect data on the outcomes of different types of hearing, research by the University College London Judicial Institute and the Nuffield Foundation in 2013 found claimants almost three times as likely to win an appeal for disability living allowance (DLA) after an oral hearing than paper alone (46%, compared to 17%)."

rockingbilly

tyler2027 wrote: »

---

1) Skype and telephone participation takes place during the tribunal meeting so the claimant can answer questions put forward as they would if they were physically present.


2) often the DWP does not send a representative, there is no prosecutor, it is not a criminal court. They are not the ones who are questioning the claimant. Its the panels job to look at the paper evidence and verbal answers and clarify any discrepencies.


3)https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3553-virtual-abolition-of-pip-dla-and-esa-appeal-tribunals-as-we-know-them


as you can see from the link above, although currently in the consultation stage, it is virtualy certain that all types of appeal tribunals will be going digital. The budget for the tribunal service is going to be halved so they are making drastic changes. Three chair panel is likely to be just one person. More cases decided on paper, and those that cant will be more likely to be virtual hearings - phone or Skype.


4) "A very tricky situation from the DWP's point of view". Currently, if there's no way a claimant feels they can attend in person, evidence via Skype or phone gives them a better chance than a paper appeal. The fact that the tribunal accepts such a request is recognition of the problems that claimant faces. However, in the future, under the digital system it will advantage the DWP/government. Firstly, more claims will be dealt on paper - which we know have significantly lower success rates. Those cases that make it to a digital hearing will be based on not enough evidence to do it on paper/conflicting evidence etc, and having a default position of digital hearings means no recognition of a claimants lack of ability to attend.
Furthermore, the DWP are hiring specific case officers to go through paperwork more thoroughly, and be more proactive in finding "faults" for either paper/virtual tribunal. The aim is to have far fewer face to face tribunals. Currently, a lot of tribunals don't even have a DWP rep attending. Maybe that's down to the logistics of not enough staff. Virtual tribunals will mean that the DWP can have more case officers specifically hired to do nothing but defend cases - not cross examining, but pointing out technicalities from the paperwork/evidence that weaken a claimants case.

Also, if you read the link above, it explains all the advantages the DWP gain, and the disadvantages to the claimants. So to sum up, at the moment Skype/phone is utilised as a way of helping claimants. In the future, the DWP will be advantaged by the virtual system.

This has been a problem for the DWP - not sending presenting officers to a hearing. This is to change until we get a full digital service. The DWP are currently spending £22m to redress this. The money is being used to hire in 180 professional presenters from outside industry. The hope is that all PIP appeals will have one in attendance. Their duty apart from, as you say picking holes in the claimants submission, is to put the DWP's argument to the Tribunal. Under current Tribunal rules each side has the right to question and cross-examine. When we go digital and with the help of these extra 'presenters' it will mean that there will be no option for any face to face oral evidence. The vast majority of appeals will be dealt with by paper submission. It just means that claimants who are appealing need to gear up their knowledge of the law/regulations and case law to be able to meet and challenge anything that the DWP throw at them. Appeals will in any event become more challenging to deal with.
Of course this will help the DWP to reduce the level of DWP decisions being over turned. In fact when the idea of making the appeal system digital to save the TS money, the DWP were first in the line to have it apply to their appeals, PIP & ESA in particular - that by itself proves that they know that it will turn the tide for them.

tyler2027

"Under current Tribunal rules each side has the right to question and cross-examine"


There is no right for the DWP to question or cross examine the claimant. The DWP can only address the tribunal panel. "Presiding officers do not have a legal right to be heard unless the tribunal judge agrees they can speak to them, or when any of the tribunal members seeks clarification from them"
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3481-dwp-recruits-180-presenting-officers-to-cut-esa-and-pip-appeal-success-rates

---

"When we go digital and with the help of these extra 'presenters' it will mean that there will be no option for any face to face oral evidence"


Correct. It will be the tribunal service who will determine what type of process takes place....paper tribunal, virtual tribunal, or face to face. No longer will claimants have a choice.

An advantage of Skype over phone in virtual tribunals is that whilst not physically face to face, oral evidence is still given and the claimant seen - so the (one) tribunal judge can see the person and visual clues ie the appearance of the person - for example the person could mobilize and the judge see it. A positive for claimants is that if they can Skype and give their oral evidence, it will be under less stress than appearing in person...they can give the same level of oral evidence as they would have done in a face to face. The disadvantage is that there will be more oral input from the DWP case officer, they still wont and never will be able to cross examine, but they can ask the judge to consider their argument to something that's been said or evidence presented by the claimant.

---

"It just means that claimants who are appealing need to gear up their knowledge of the law/regulations and case law to be able to meet and challenge anything that the DWP throw at them. Appeals will in any event become more challenging to deal with"


Its down to the judge to know the case law and regulation, many tribunals of all forms (employment, benefits etc) take place with claimants not knowing the legalaties. But its not going to be detrimental to do research and know how the land lies.


But its the claimants job to inform the judge of their limitations and how they merit an award. At this stage the DWP aren't likely to focus on case law etc either, as its going to be the judges job to come to a decision and state any relevant case law they have used to reach it......the DWP is hiring these case officers to be thorough and nit pick holes in evidence and verbal statements.


That's not to say the DWP wont use knowledge gained from case law, to ask the judge to direct the questioning into getting information from the client that "fits" into their preferred case law. But equally, the judge will probably know more case law than the DWP employee...and that there is an opposing judgement out there that "fits" the claimants point. The judge is going to ask enough questions (hopefully) to ensure a clear picture to which a decision can be reached.


As you can see from the link I posted previously, yes appeals will be more challenging to deal with. Not because of not knowing the law, but more likely for more practical reasons. Access to computers, ability to use Skype, to be able to follow a three way screen etc. If that happens I can see the virtual tribunal downgrading it to phone evidence rather than upgrading it to a face to face?

---

"In fact when the idea of making the appeal system digital to save the TS money, the DWP were first in the line to have it apply to their appeals, PIP & ESA in particular"


Cant find the link, but its H.M courts and tribunals service that decided on this new system and who goes digital first. I suppose it depends on where it costs them the most? child maintenance-bankruptcies-benefits? maybe JSA/UC claimants appealing sanctions? maybe there will be a tussle between HRMC and the DWP et al....or maybe they will just bring it in for all relevant govt departments at the same time? who knows.

rockingbilly

tyler2027 wrote: »

"Under current Tribunal rules each side has the right to question and cross-examine"


There is no right for the DWP to question or cross examine the claimant. The DWP can only address the tribunal panel. "Presiding officers do not have a legal right to be heard unless the tribunal judge agrees they can speak to them, or when any of the tribunal members seeks clarification from them"
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3481-dwp-recruits-180-presenting-officers-to-cut-esa-and-pip-appeal-success-rates

---

"When we go digital and with the help of these extra 'presenters' it will mean that there will be no option for any face to face oral evidence"


Correct. It will be the tribunal service who will determine what type of process takes place....paper tribunal, virtual tribunal, or face to face. No longer will claimants have a choice.

An advantage of Skype over phone in virtual tribunals is that whilst not physically face to face, oral evidence is still given and the claimant seen - so the (one) tribunal judge can see the person and visual clues ie the appearance of the person - for example the person could mobilize and the judge see it. A positive for claimants is that if they can Skype and give their oral evidence, it will be under less stress than appearing in person...they can give the same level of oral evidence as they would have done in a face to face. The disadvantage is that there will be more oral input from the DWP case officer, they still wont and never will be able to cross examine, but they can ask the judge to consider their argument to something that's been said or evidence presented by the claimant.

---

"It just means that claimants who are appealing need to gear up their knowledge of the law/regulations and case law to be able to meet and challenge anything that the DWP throw at them. Appeals will in any event become more challenging to deal with"


Its down to the judge to know the case law and regulation, many tribunals of all forms (employment, benefits etc) take place with claimants not knowing the legalaties. But its not going to be detrimental to do research and know how the land lies.


But its the claimants job to inform the judge of their limitations and how they merit an award. At this stage the DWP aren't likely to focus on case law etc either, as its going to be the judges job to come to a decision and state any relevant case law they have used to reach it......the DWP is hiring these case officers to be thorough and nit pick holes in evidence and verbal statements.


That's not to say the DWP wont use knowledge gained from case law, to ask the judge to direct the questioning into getting information from the client that "fits" into their preferred case law. But equally, the judge will probably know more case law than the DWP employee...and that there is an opposing judgement out there that "fits" the claimants point. The judge is going to ask enough questions (hopefully) to ensure a clear picture to which a decision can be reached.


As you can see from the link I posted previously, yes appeals will be more challenging to deal with. Not because of not knowing the law, but more likely for more practical reasons. Access to computers, ability to use Skype, to be able to follow a three way screen etc. If that happens I can see the virtual tribunal downgrading it to phone evidence rather than upgrading it to a face to face?

---

"In fact when the idea of making the appeal system digital to save the TS money, the DWP were first in the line to have it apply to their appeals, PIP & ESA in particular"


Cant find the link, but its H.M courts and tribunals service that decided on this new system and who goes digital first. I suppose it depends on where it costs them the most? child maintenance-bankruptcies-benefits? maybe JSA/UC claimants appealing sanctions? maybe there will be a tussle between HRMC and the DWP et al....or maybe they will just bring it in for all relevant govt departments at the same time? who knows.

Well I don't know where you are getting the relevant legislation from to say that presenting officers cannot challenge oral statements made by the claimant. Of course they can and do but yes through the 'chair'.
What I am trying to say is that in future oral appeals, until they are done away with, will become much harder. There you have the claimant who knows very little about the finer points of PIP legislation up against an experienced 'presenter'. Obviously the chair will attempt to make it a level playing field, but there will be times when the claimant will say - 'err, umm, no idea what you are on about - I have just told it as it is in my words'. But unfortunately what they have said will be picked up by the DWP rep. and used against the claimant.
As far as I am concerned all justice is moving away from the claimant. How many times has an appeal been overturned in favour of the claimant - current figures suggest that for PIP over 60% of all appeals! And it is further accepted that the majority of that 60% figure was because of the availability to provide face to face oral evidence to a Tribunal. What do you think will happen when they take away that opportunity and maybe in some cases ask the claimant to tell their story over the phone? For all other appeals, it will have to be on written submissions only. How many PIP appellants would have the skill and ability to submit such a document without representation? And trying to get hold of quality help is nigh on impossible. My own case is a prime example. I am part way through the move from DLA to PIP. The PIP2 form had to be in by the 5th Feb. The earliest opportunity of getting an appointment with a Welfare Rights organisation was on the 17th Feb. My only option was to have the DWP help me fill out the form which I did on the 30th Jan (their earliest appointment). As suggested on this site I should telephone the DWP and ask for an extension of the time limit. This I did last Fri 3rd Feb and they gave me SEVEN extra days.
This means that the PIP2 had to be back no later than the 12th Feb - still five days before I could get to the appointment on the 17th.
I really feel for people who either cannot deal with the DWP or understand the forms/appeal system. In my opinion they will be shafted in the future. For me, I now don't particularly care what the DWP do - take away my DLA (HRM & MRC) and give me no points for PIP. Just the stress and effort trying to sort out just getting the claim fom in has been a difficult time with the DWP not answering letters or returning phone calls and that was just to get the claim off the ground! Whatever they do they will do - and as for taking whatever the decision may be to appeal - Not a chance in a month of Sundays will I put myself through that. I would sooner lose the money and have nothing more to do with the system.