Electric cars

zeupater

AdrianC wrote: »

I don't doubt that you did get a substantial discount off list. Well done. BTW, you may want to redact a little harder to remove your name from it.

That invoice does rather prove my point, though - it clearly shows the (before gov't grant) list price of £30,670, with a £7,880 discount off it (taking the VAT into account). If you also factor the gov't grant in, that's a 30% discount, 25% without the grant. That's pretty bloody sizable by any measure, and can only be indicative of real-world demand.

It seems that yours is one of just three iSigs which have been registered in the UK, all Q90, with another 19 Sig Q90s on battery lease, and another 77 Sig R90s on lease. There are a total of less than 1,000 40kWh Zoes of all specs.
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?q=renault+zoe

Hi

That's an amazing apology for having knowingly been shown to be totally wrong by someone willing to supply personal real world information ... wait a minute, it was no such thing, just an attempt to employ more irrelevant smoke & mirrors to hide behind ...

... next you'll be telling everyone that they're building no Zoes and adding that to someone's 'global EV con' list alongside the Model 3 & the non-existent Tesla truck which I'm pretty sure I saw a couple of prototypes running around in the launch video a couple of months ago ....

Ah well, don't blame you, not everyone enjoys the taste of humble pie, but if you don't like the idea of eating it, don't continually order so much of it!

HTH
Z

AdrianC

zeupater wrote: »

...& the non-existent Tesla truck which I'm pretty sure I saw a couple of prototypes running around in the launch video a couple of months ago ....

<chuckle> You really believe they're anything other than a styling mock-up that's more-or-less self-propelled across a stage? Pull the other one. You're almost as addicted to St Elon's Kool-Aid as Martyn.

zeupater

Joe_Horner wrote: »

I'm really not sure if you're intentionally not understanding of if it's a real block / my poor explanation skills.

I'm talking entirely about energy at the same point in the cycle - delivery to the customer. That's the power that would be registered on your electricity meter and all the factors you keep introducing have already happened at that point.

If your meter shows that you've used, say, 100kWh this month then that's what you've used and that's what you get billed for. the fact that 100kWh may have used 200kWh of energy input at the power station doesn't matter - you have used 100 kWh of energy.

Similarly, if you top up your electric vehicle by 1 kWh then you have used 1 kWh of elecH (using the figures I've allowed) will carry you 4 miles before you need to top up again. the amount of energy input at the power station is irrelevant - you've used 1kWh on your meter and you've traveled 4 miles.

If you insist on calculating back to the energy input at the power station, then all the losses you keep trying to take away must be added to that 1kWh in order to see how much energy is input to get that 1kWh out.

Now:

• The energy taken OUT of the system (ie: after losses) for 2016 fleet mileage would be 88.9tWh.
• The total energy OUTPUT by the UK electricity supply (ie: after losses) in 2016 was about 303tWh according to DECC estimates.
• The OUTPUT energy for all-electric transport on 2016 mileage would be about a 30% addition to the total OUTPUT of the system in 2016

Both of those figures may well need double (or more) energy INPUT to the system (ie: at a different point in the supply system) but that's not relevant to the comparison because all figures are for energy OUTPUT - ie: at the SAME POINT in the system.

Hi

In terms of what that means to the ability to roll-out EVs, that's absolute rubbish - there are simply four distinct arguments you're using ...

1 - Generation capacity
2 - Energy Delivery
3 - Static storage infrastructure
4 - Relative traction efficiencies
5 - Range

so ..
1 - With consumer incentives, energy storage management & potentially a small increase in generation capacity this is doable within the available timescale, so not an immediate issue.

2 - Your 88.9TWh resolves to 2.1MWh of additional grid load for each UK home which averages to ~240W or approx 1amp .. add in all points of demand (commercial/industrial/infrastructure etc) and the additional load is further diluted, so not an issue which is as great as it first seems when focus is concentrated on extremes such as rapid charging all vehicles from empty to full in the same 30 minute slot every week ...

3 - Certainly much of this infrastructure will be added by consumers and energy vendors to accumulate energy when excess is available ... Many with solar PV will charge home battery storage during the day, using this to 'top-up' their own vehicle when convenient, others will take advantage of larger scale 'owned' generation to accumulate energy to either sell, use in peak demand periods, or even use for haulage vehicle rapid charging without reliance on major local grid enhancements.

4 - You have to consider traction efficiencies relative to the energy input. Your example of metered electricity also applies to the energy you pump into your ICE fuel tank ... the electricity meter records energy which can be directly employed, the petrol pump registers a volume which has an energy potential which cannot fully be converted to useful traction energy ... Considering that for every gallon of fuel pumped into the tank, you're also pumping 6kWh of unusable electricity, this must also be accounted for because, unlike electricity generation & distribution efficiencies, it is an embedded process requirement - efficiencies related to the production and delivery of electricity are the same whether it's used in a home, or a refinery therefore they cancel each-other out and are therefore irrelevant .. although your claim is that this is irrelevant for output, it's certainly relevant for input(generation) which you base other capacity argument on ... you can't compartmentalise one without considering the other, but the important issue is generation/storage capacity at the time of demand, the ability to distribute is simply down to planning, management & tweaking.

5 - Just a few years ago EV range was probably best defined by a button on the console of a Toyota Prius, then it doubled, then larger battery packs were added for a plug-in version, then true EVs passed the 50 mile mark, then 100, then 150, then 200 & now we're talking about 400/500 miles between charges ... looking at this on a timeline, we're not talking millennia or centuries, just a little over a decade, so the argument is what? - battery technologies will stagnate at current capabilities and 400/500miles is the ultimate limit driven by energy storage density? ... or over the three decades we're talking about will technology continue to extend the range? .... 500 miles is probably good enough for almost everyone, so if it becomes 1000 or even virtually infinite through induction charging on particular roads whilst in motion, where's the argument against then?

HTH
Z

zeupater

AdrianC wrote: »

<chuckle> You really believe they're anything other than a styling mock-up that's more-or-less self-propelled across a stage? Pull the other one. You're almost as addicted to St Elon's Kool-Aid as Martyn.

Hi

.. and the world is now considered? ..

A - Flat & round
B - Flat & square
C - Flat & hexagonal
D - F......

If there's a reality check needed it certainly looks to not be where the majority now sit and watch developments ... :cool:

HTH
Z

Martyn1981

almillar wrote: »

People queue at the pumps when a fuel price rise is announced, so this is similar.

That's a point that was brought up prior to the hurricane hitting Florida last year. People were queuing at petrol stations (to full their tanks), some of which ran dry, whilst EV drivers just topped up their cars at home ready to flee depending on the latest storm forecasts.

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

<chuckle> You really believe they're anything other than a styling mock-up that's more-or-less self-propelled across a stage? Pull the other one. You're almost as addicted to St Elon's Kool-Aid as Martyn.

Once again, I have to ask if it was only me that watched the launch and the associated videos published afterwards showing all of the fun rides given afterwards in the Roadster2 and Semi truck?

Perhaps you didn't even watch the intro when the trucks were driven to the stage, not "more-or-less self-propelled" across it.

Nothing you have said so far has been reasonable, nor truthful, whilst I am happy to believe that the product as described will be delivered in a few years, you appear to be in complete denial, as per your repeated claims that M3's aren't now being delivered.

Martyn1981

If anyone is interested, here are the new Nissan Leaf list prices. Unless I'm misunderstanding the chart, it appears that the 40kWh model will cost no more than the older 24/30kWh models, so that's good news.

Nissan LEAF UK Prices Announced — Full List

The new LEAF has a 50% increase in range, reaching up to 235 miles (380 km) according to the NEDC system (or 150 miles more realistically) and also benefits from a less discussed 38% increase in power, to 150PS. At the same time, the OTR price can end up £1,500 lower than the previous generation.

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Once again, I have to ask if it was only me that watched the launch and the associated videos published afterwards showing all of the fun rides given afterwards in the Roadster2 and Semi truck?

Perhaps you didn't even watch the intro when the trucks were driven to the stage, not "more-or-less self-propelled" across it.

While you can't tell the difference between even a viable early prototype and a mocked-up publicity stunt.

Nothing you have said so far has been reasonable, nor truthful, whilst I am happy to believe that the product as described will be delivered in a few years, you appear to be in complete denial, as per your repeated claims that M3's aren't now being delivered.

So if I walk into my local Tesla dealer today, and splunk down the deposit on a model 3, when will I get it? 2018? H1 2019? Simple answer: Nobody knows.

What proportion of the pre-launch deposit-placers are driving around in their cars now? Clue: Less than 1%... When will production be even half-ramped up? Two and a bit months time, three months later than planned. And this is based off St Elon's press-releases, so you can bet it's glossier than a car salesman's suit trousers.

zeupater

AdrianC wrote: »

While you can't tell the difference between even a viable early prototype and a mocked-up publicity stunt.

So if I walk into my local Tesla dealer today, and splunk down the deposit on a model 3, when will I get it? 2018? H1 2019? Simple answer: Nobody knows.

What proportion of the pre-launch deposit-placers are driving around in their cars now? Clue: Less than 1%... When will production be even half-ramped up? Two and a bit months time, three months later than planned. And this is based off St Elon's press-releases, so you can bet it's glossier than a car salesman's suit trousers.

Hi

What a skewed view of reality you seem to have developed ... anyway, we all know of some project or other which has been slow to ramp up, but better slow than wrong, after-all, unlike many other consumer products, cars have additional safety critical requirements!

What needs to be recognised is that Tesla in particular are simultaneously addressing a number of issues which don't normally require detailed attention when established automotive companies release new versions of their vehicles ... new buildings, new plant, new processes, new technologies, integrated AI technology, new power-train, new energy source, ramping-up energy source manufacturing, ramping-up raw material supply chain, rolling-out global re-fuelling network ... etc, etc .... considering all of this, a couple of months delay in delivery would be eminently acceptable to anyone that has ever been involved in a simple platform change or half-life facelift for a 'legacy' vehicle manufacturer.

I'd be more concerned with getting something which lives depend on right than pushing product through the door just to meet expectations & avoid a little corporate or personal embarrassment ... my guess is that's the Tesla management view too!

I reckon that the main issue which has impacted the roll-out timeline for the Model-3 is simply incorporating technology which many (/most?) won't be inclined to use anyway. Tesla seem to be towards the cutting-edge on the technology front, yet lag behind the curve when it comes to establishing the average consumer's product requirements - for example ... this article ... questions both the design capacity of the Powerwall-2 home battery system and the need for a new entry volume EV manufacturer to need to build AI into their vehicles, thereby adding manufacturing & development cost & complexity at such an early stage of development.

HTH
Z

silverwhistle

NigeWick wrote: »

d a Zappi smart charger. The Zappi pushes any unused solar to the car before allowing it to the grid.

I've seen references to this elsewhere, do you know how sensitive it is (to save me the bother of looking myself!)? Ta! I currently have an iboost to shove spare power into my immersion, but it needs a fair bit spare before it does so.

I'm certainly seriously considering electric for my next (second/hand) car. Not really justifiable economically in view of my low mileage, but the environmental side of the equation is also something I take into account.

The experiences of yourself and other EV drivers on here is very welcome. Not that your real life experiences are ever listened to by the anti-EV posters on here.