Electric cars

Herzlos

Car_54 wrote: »

700 miles on our motorway network? I think not.

Fair point. Changed to 400 miles.

kmb500

Herzlos wrote: »

What's wrong with it?

The biggest complaint I'm seeing is from people who've narrowed in on a pretty obscure limitation to electric cars - single charge range - "But what if I want to do a 600 mile motorway journey without stopping?", and that provides a mechanically trivial solution.

It gives you the range you need when you need it, without having to buy or carry all of that extra battery capacity. It's not like you'd need to own one or take it everywhere with you.

I imagine almost no-one would need to actually use them, as most people will be stopping for breaks naturally long before they run out of charge.

I've been on plenty of long car journeys with frequent stops, and have never come across an electric charging point. The only one I've ever seen is the one at my work.

Mercdriver

kmb500 wrote: »

I've been on plenty of long car journeys with frequent stops, and have never come across an electric charging point. The only one I've ever seen is the one at my work.

Most motorway service areas have them. Can't remember the last time I went to a MSA without one.

This is just one of the brands...

https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/for-the-road/our-electric-highway

AdrianC

Mercdriver wrote: »

Most motorway service areas have them. Can't remember the last time I went to a MSA without one.

Taking an M1 services at random - Trowell - there are apparently four on each carriageway, according to ZapMap.

Mercdriver

AdrianC wrote: »

Taking an M1 services at random - Trowell - there are apparently four on each carriageway, according to ZapMap.

Indeed. There are quite a few around Cambridgeshire which KMB500 has missed. So while Cambridgeshire might have few red light cameras and box junctions, it does have electric charge points. Plus Cambridgeshire is pretty flat so a good area for electric vehicles

Herzlos

AdrianC wrote: »

That's kinda the whole point. If the technology means you have to change the way you use the product, then the technology is causing a problem.

We had to change how we used transport when we went from horse to car. Not all change is bad.

So not actually, y'know, trailers...?

Still trailers, just with an adjustment to the law.

Where? Every street corner? If these trailers are being rented from point-to-point, then they are going to have to be master-keyed. Which means an inherent insecurity.

A few largish car parks would do it. Easy enough to have a locking hitch at the end of most spaces.

...and there was me, thinking we were talking about a short-term stopgap until the technology was actually mature enough to be usable without these inherent compromises being a problem.

It's shortish term, we'll hit a point where you can drive the length of the country on a single charge. But we haven't got that far with internal combustion yet.

Even ignoring my nearest motorway is over an hour from my house, and I've got friends who live nearly three hours from m'way... (I live in the English Midlands, btw)

That'd still be within your EV charge range.

So you're looking at a trailer that can recharge, say, 200 mile range (call it 60kWh) in three hours (200 miles), plus another 60kWh for actually driving the car that distance. 120kWh in three hours, 40kW.

200 mile range is closer to 20kwh than 60kwh. so 20kwh to recharge, 20kwh to cover the distance, over 3 hours is 13kw.

Range extended EV's don't require generators of anything near that size, so why would a trailer?

Ignoring the minor detail that it won't weigh anything like 400kg - even without the trailer hardware

I'm not sure how much it'd weight. I'd be closer to 400kg than 3500kg though.

towing laws don't work like that. Even a tiny box trailer is speed-limited the same as a 3.5t plant trailer.

Indeed, but that's due to the law, nothing else. No reason a <750kg trailer with brakes would need to have the same speed restrictions as a 3500kg trailer.

You're talking about current restrictions regarding towing, which I agree mean it wouldn't work right now. No reason we couldn't advance beyond that to find a good solution. It not working now has never been a reason not to try and make it work later.

So the people who really should be the first priority for zero-local-emission vehicles, then?

They are 1 of the 2 use cases where electric cars aren't viable.

For the other one, sales people usually have to park somewhere for a while so could charge. Taxis spend some time idle so could charge. The only ones that are really stuck would be couriers, but then vans have a lot more space for a larger battery system.

Herzlos

kmb500 wrote: »

I've been on plenty of long car journeys with frequent stops, and have never come across an electric charging point. The only one I've ever seen is the one at my work.

Every motorway services I've used in the last few years has had at least 4. Most big car parks have them these days. My local library has 2, my local train station has 4, and I live in the middle of nowhere, relatively.

As the uptake of electric cars increases, you'll find more and more charging points available until there are nearly as many charging points as parking spaces.

AdrianC

Herzlos wrote: »

We had to change how we used transport when we went from horse to car. Not all change is bad.

Indeed. Being able to easily travel around the country was a good change.

Still trailers, just with an adjustment to the law.

Gotcha. So will these towing law changes only apply to your charging trailers? Or will you be extending them to every trailer?

A few largish car parks would do it. Easy enough to have a locking hitch at the end of most spaces.

And the master-keying?

It's shortish term, we'll hit a point where you can drive the length of the country on a single charge. But we haven't got that far with internal combustion yet.

Yes, we have. Long since. I had a petrol automatic car built over 20 years ago that was capable of 700 mile range.

200 mile range is closer to 20kwh than 60kwh

You're in cloud cuckoo land. Official range for a 30kWh Leaf is 107 miles. Official range for a 90kWh Model S is 294 miles.

Range extended EV's don't require generators of anything near that size, so why would a trailer?

The i3 REx will - at best - hold the charge level while driving, rather than deplete it. It won't recharge it while driving.

Indeed, but that's due to the law, nothing else. No reason a <750kg trailer with brakes would need to have the same speed restrictions as a 3500kg trailer.

You've never actually towed anything much, have you...?

Taxis spend some time idle so could charge.

You may not have heard, but taxis drive around looking for fares, while minicabs have radios. While they're sat idle, the driver's not earning.

The only ones that are really stuck would be couriers, but then vans have a lot more space for a larger battery system.

The Nissan NV200 goes from 750kg to 700kg payload from diesel to electric - but only by beefing up the running gear to give a GVW 250kg heavier. Put the suspension from the electric on the diesel, and that'd be a 300kg payload difference... But that's with a 100-odd mile range. Put a 300 mile range battery in, that's all the payload gone. A van with no payload is not terribly useful.

AdrianC

Herzlos wrote: »

Every motorway services I've used in the last few years has had at least 4. Most big car parks have them these days. My local library has 2, my local train station has 4, and I live in the middle of nowhere, relatively.

As the uptake of electric cars increases, you'll find more and more charging points available until there are nearly as many charging points as parking spaces.

They need to have electricity delivered to them. You'd need some monumental cabling to allow them all to be used simultaneously.

Herzlos

AdrianC wrote: »

Indeed. Being able to easily travel around the country was a good change.

And you still can.

Gotcha. So will these towing law changes only apply to your charging trailers? Or will you be extending them to every trailer?

May as well. Trailer regulations are in desperate need of updating.

And the master-keying?

Doesn't this apply to all locks for anything hired?

Yes, we have. Long since. I had a petrol automatic car built over 20 years ago that was capable of 700 mile range.

But not that common. You can't get 700 miles out of most modern diesels.

You're in cloud cuckoo land. Official range for a 30kWh Leaf is 107 miles. Official range for a 90kWh Model S is 294 miles.

You're right, I misread.

The i3 REx will - at best - hold the charge level while driving, rather than deplete it. It won't recharge it while driving.

Whilst the Mitsubishi PHEV can charge or just maintain battery level.

You've never actually towed anything much, have you...?

Nothing over about 3000kg or 15ft, certainly. Stopping is a whole lot easier with a 400kg braked trailer than a 3000kg braked trailer.

I've probably only done about 2,000 miles with a trailer on, though.

You may not have heard, but taxis drive around looking for fares, while minicabs have radios. While they're sat idle, the driver's not earning.

Taxis quite often wait in taxi ranks too.

The Nissan NV200 goes from 750kg to 700kg payload from diesel to electric - but only by beefing up the running gear to give a GVW 250kg heavier. Put the suspension from the electric on the diesel, and that'd be a 300kg payload difference... But that's with a 100-odd mile range. Put a 300 mile range battery in, that's all the payload gone. A van with no payload is not terribly useful.

It's certainly a harder problem to solve, particularly on the smaller vans low capacity vans. I'd assume the courier vans doing the huge mileage are the larger Transit/Sprinter type vans where you've got more scope for batteries.

Again, nothing to say you couldn't add 300kg of battery and push the GVW up to 3,800kg and require drivers to do a C1.

None of these problems are insurmountable though.