Forum Home» Motoring

Electric cars - Page 193

New Post Advanced Search

Electric cars

edited 30 November -1 at 1:00AM in Motoring
4.3K replies 316.8K views
1190191193195196435

Replies

  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
    10.8K posts
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No Martin.

    If you look back to post 1913, you will see that I said...



    I said "could" because at the time I was unaware that it was actually being done.

    My next post showed that not only could it be done, but it actually is being done. Proving my point.

    I can run through it again if you like...

    Yep, that's what I thought, you said it in one post, then proclaimed 'you'd proven' an unchallenged point. Very strange.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
    10.8K posts
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, a much simpler shape to encompass a relatively uniform shaped battery pack as opposed to a floorpan that has to accommodate a transmission tunnel, room for the diffs, room for the exhaust system including DPFs, catalytic converters and a few other things.

    Again.

    The only difference is the drive train, replace all the ICE's complicated cogs, gears, drive shafts, differentials, transfer box, exhaust pipe, catalytic converter, DPF (if diesel) fuel tank and fuel system with a battery, a couple of motors and a bit more wire.

    As for the why they aren't, I think you answered your own question in post #1917

    You appear to be going in circles, you claimed that building an ICE or EV is simple for an established car company, You've guoted how many years JLR have been around, how many years you've been around and dismissed any interest in GM's age and EV attempts.

    But the point remains, if it's so easy, then they'd all be doing it today, and making a profit on them 'like what' Tesla is doing, after all Tesla is much younger and has a massive profit margin on the Model 3 (estimated by the German strip down, and US strip down companies) but they are not.

    So it seems that reality doesn't agree with your theory, when your theory/claims are actually tested in the real world.

    As to why your theory/claims are wrong, I don't know, I've made a few suggestions and guesses to help you out, but the issue was can long established companies easily switch from ICE's to EV's, and it seems to be a lot harder than you thought/think.

    Everything else is the same. If not please explain what is different?

    I don't need to. I've simply pointed out that reality proves your claims wrong, I'm not theorizing against you, I'm simply pointing out that you got it wrong.

    Perhaps, just perhaps you could consider or contemplate the idea that GM's 110yrs of ICE experience, or your 30yrs in the car industry, simply don't matter that much as ICE's and EV's are different animals. It's interesting (to me) that the Bolt (even on first release) got higher CR scores than the rest of the Chevy range, yet was designed and built with considerable help from LG, seeming to indicate that building EV's needs additional/new expertise.
    Sorry, but you really don't have a clue about building cars do you?

    That's correct, and I'd suggest the same clearly applies to you with regard to EV's. Perhaps that's the problem.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
    10.8K posts
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some EV news:

    1. Tesla may be taking market share from 'ordinary' cars, not just the small luxury market. I'm only guessing, but the Model 3 could/might outsell all other cars from Aug 18 to July 19 in the US. Might even get close to the Ford F150 pick up. Quite an achievement.

    Tesla Model 3 Sales Skyrocket, US Toyota Camry & Prius Sales Plummet — Coincidence?

    2. New Legislation To Revolutionize EV Charging In The UK
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • edited 2 August 2018 at 7:32AM
    GloomendoomGloomendoom Forumite
    16.5K posts
    edited 2 August 2018 at 7:32AM
    Building an EV from scratch isn't easy. They are simpler in principle but highly complex in practice.

    Manufacturing one however, once the design and development stages are complete, is no different to manufacturing an ICE vehicle.

    Taking the design, development, manufacturing and other costs into consideration, I doubt that Tesla is even breaking even with Model 3 at current production levels, never mind making a 30% profit.

    Edit: Looking around the web, it seems that Model 3 production would need to hit around 4000 a week to break even. Are they doing that yet?
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
  • edited 2 August 2018 at 8:01AM
    Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
    10.8K posts
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited 2 August 2018 at 8:01AM
    Building an EV from scratch isn't easy. They are simpler in principle but highly complex in practice.

    Yep.
    Manufacturing one however, once the design and development stages are complete, is no different to manufacturing an ICE vehicle.

    Yep, it's that design and development stage that seems to cost a fortune as ICE's and EV's are such different animals. Seems to take perhaps a decade to get there looking at Nissan and Tesla, since ICE experience doesn't appear to account for much.
    Taking the design, development, manufacturing and other costs into consideration, I doubt that Tesla is even breaking even with Model 3 at current production levels, never mind making a 30% profit.

    Take a look at the reports from the breakdown experts. Munro and Associates seemed genuinely shocked. Compared the integrated electronics to an F-35 flight controller, and a symphony of engineering

    Munro Teardown Shows Tesla Model 3 Solidly Profitable
    Edit: Looking around the web, it seems that Model 3 production would need to hit around 4000 a week to break even. Are they doing that yet?

    They hit a burst rate of 5,000 at the end of July, and sustained production now seems to be around 5,000, but expect lots of variation (up and down) for some months. They are still targeting 6,000 per week by the end of August and 10,000 next year.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • AdrianCAdrianC Forumite
    31.1K posts
    10,000 Posts Seventh Anniversary Name Dropper
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Some EV news:

    1. Tesla may be taking market share from 'ordinary' cars, not just the small luxury market. I'm only guessing, but the Model 3 could/might outsell all other cars from Aug 18 to July 19 in the US. Might even get close to the Ford F150 pick up. Quite an achievement.
    Is there any reality which will impinge upon your rampant astroturfing for St Elon?

    Yes, they're finally ramping production up - but still very slowly. To date, they've had 2x 4,000+ car weeks, 2x 3,800+ car weeks, and another 3x 3,000 car weeks (one in April, one in May). A week ago, they put out just 2,800 - one of just three weeks ~2,500+. The grand total is still <60k cars.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/

    And you reckon that in the year from this month on, they can actually make a big dent in the US car market? Tesla has 0.7% of the car market this year to date...
    https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/salesfig_usa_2018
    ...and trucks outsell cars 2:1. Ford shift over 800,000 F150s - to get close to that, Tesla would be looking at nearly a quarter of the total car market, a 35x increase from now...
  • NBLondonNBLondon Forumite
    3.7K posts
    Eighth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    ✭✭✭✭
    AdrianC wrote: »
    ...and trucks outsell cars 2:1. Ford shift over 800,000 F150s
    I wonder how much if that is necessity and how much is image? Some Americans buy pick-ups because they need to carry significant amounts of stuff about- small tradespersons often use them the way European equivalents would use a small van. Some buy them as a cultural thing of "I'm a man who does manly things like hunting and home improvements and taking stuff to the dump and I need a V8 truck!" when it only gets used for any of that once a year or only ever to a third of it's capacity. So would they buy electric versions? I guess for the practical purchasers it's the same as a van maker over here - the questions are about payload, cost to run and so on and if you have a charge point. Range might be a bigger factor though - many American cities are much more sprawling than ours, a 50 mile each way daily commute is not that unusual so e.g. a self-employed plumber may do a lot more miles per day. In a rural area - even more so but as here - it could work out very effective with a solar panel set up and then charge overnight.

    As for the image guys - if you made something that looked tough enough and had the performance you could get away with a relatively poor payload. Or go for a smaller but sporty image - if you built a pick-up body on a Tesla 3 platform would that work? (I presume Tesla have thought of this)
    Wash your Knobs and Knockers... Keep the Postie safe!
  • ArklightArklight Forumite
    3.1K posts
    1,000 Posts Fourth Anniversary
    ✭✭✭✭
    Few truck driving Americans need the size of car they choose, and like their Range Rover driving cousins across the water, even fewer see anything remotely describable as off road.

    Open Pick up trucks aren!!!8217;t any more useful for a small business there than here. You can!!!8217;t lock tools in them safely or protect anything from the elements. If someone in an SME is driving a company pick up its probably the boss.

    Most people in the States just want something reliable and economical to get to work in. There!!!8217;s tonnes of available infrastructure for charging points. The global EV market will be driven from there.
  • NBLondonNBLondon Forumite
    3.7K posts
    Eighth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    ✭✭✭✭
    Arklight wrote: »
    Open Pick up trucks aren!!!8217;t any more useful for a small business there than here. You can!!!8217;t lock tools in them safely or protect anything from the elements. If someone in an SME is driving a company pick up its probably the boss.
    Lockable tool chests in the back, tarpaulins. At least that's what my Texas joiner/carpenter pal does. Another pal of mine used to drive a company Ford Ranger to deliver car parts from wholesaler to garages and then go home in his Chevy Silverado. You're right - a panel van would be better for many so maybe it's an overlap with the image thing.

    Might be a city/country thing as well. City-based commuters want reliable, economical and comfortable until they get rich enough to go for prestige brands. Small town America (of which there's still an awful lot) will have a different driving profile.
    Wash your Knobs and Knockers... Keep the Postie safe!
  • almillaralmillar Forumite
    8.6K posts
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    ✭✭✭✭
    (hearse)
    Hybrid'll do that, of course.
    Whilst carrying around a completely superfluouse ICE.
    You could run them down the same production line, one behind the other.
    Already happening, almost, in the Clio mk4/Zoe factory. Part of why Zoe is so cheap is that it was designed to run along the same production line as the Clio - I don't think they can literally do 1 car after another, Zoe was meant to use spare capacity in the factory, it may switch around daily/weekly/monthly.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Quick links

Essential Money | Who & Where are you? | Work & Benefits | Household and travel | Shopping & Freebies | About MSE | The MoneySavers Arms | Covid-19 & Coronavirus Support