Are degrees in the UK value for money?

GreatApe

You could improve the university industry massively and fairly quickly if you paid the universities on results.

So for instance you could have payment done on first 3 years graduates earnings.
Universities would not get their £9,250 annual tuition up front they would be given say £9,250 for each year their graduate earns over a specified amount post graduation. Only paid if the graduate earns 20% more than non graduates of the same age.

So the mathematics student from oxford who gets a £60k first year salary then £80k second year and £100k would see oxford get its tuition of £9,250 x 3 fully paid. Happy days

But the media studies student from Luton who is unemployed for 1 year then gets a job at Asda for £15k next year and then moves on up to Vodaphone for £16k the year after. Well that would result in a payment of £0 for Luton university

The universities would close down their worst departments and expand their better subjects and likely student numbers would shrink as the universities realize they are not actually adding any earning power to many of their students via the subjects they teach.

The universities that mostly got their students decent jobs would be fine those that just got their students average non grad jobs would be fooked.

GreatApe

Cakeguts wrote: »

Regarding negative and depressed. I don't think you actually mean depressed do you? People use depression to describe people who are negative because they are angry that they can't get what they feel they are entitled to but this isn't depression. Depression is an illness. You can't just get rid of depression by spending time with positive people. It is difficult to describe depression but basically what happens is that your brain starts to generate negative thoughts on its own a bit like getting a headache that isn't triggered by anything. So you can have friends who are the most positive people in the world but that wouldn't stop you getting a headache and it won't stop your brain from generating negative thoughts if you have depression. Being with positive people wouldn't stop you from getting flu. Being positive can't cure a broken leg or any other illness and depression is the same you can't get better only by being positive.

The difficult bit with depression is trying to work out what are the negative thoughts that your brain is generating because you have depression and what someone not suffering from depression would worry about. Sorting out the depression generated worries from normal ones is actually quite difficult when it is all going on in your head and it all feels very real.

I think in normal conversion saying you are depressed means you feel sad or unhappy
Clinical Depression is of course something much more powerful than feeling down for a few days

Obviously I am a novice on this but my guess is that your surroundings and activities and habits and routines would make it more or less likely to become clinically depressed. One of the good things about routine and full time work is it occupies your mind and gives you less time to fester and make things worse. Its perhaps why in the past people seemed to be less depressed or less-unhappy they had to work much more hours and often manual jobs which deactivates mostly the thinking part of the brain (you cant think much while shoveling coal for 12 hours a day).

If someone close to me was depressed that is probably what I would try, give them responsibilities that fill up all their time. A 60 hour active job and actives outside of work and proper home choirs inside the house (spending an hour cooking rather than an hour on Facebook eating cornflakes). Of course I could be talking out my !!!! having never experienced it myself or known anyone to go through it.

Cash-Cows

GreatApe wrote: »

You could improve the university industry massively and fairly quickly if you paid the universities on results.

So for instance you could have payment done on first 3 years graduates earnings.
Universities would not get their £9,250 annual tuition up front they would be given say £9,250 for each year their graduate earns over a specified amount post graduation. Only paid if the graduate earns 20% more than non graduates of the same age.

So the mathematics student from oxford who gets a £60k first year salary then £80k second year and £100k would see oxford get its tuition of £9,250 x 3 fully paid. Happy days

But the media studies student from Luton who is unemployed for 1 year then gets a job at Asda for £15k next year and then moves on up to Vodaphone for £16k the year after. Well that would result in a payment of £0 for Luton university

The universities would close down their worst departments and expand their better subjects and likely student numbers would shrink as the universities realize they are not actually adding any earning power to many of their students via the subjects they teach.

The universities that mostly got their students decent jobs would be fine those that just got their students average non grad jobs would be fooked.

Attending university isn't just about what job you get at the end, it really isn't.

economic

Cash-Cows wrote: »

Attending university isn't just about what job you get at the end, it really isn't.

Then what is it about?

westernpromise

Well, it's about scolding other students for having views you disagree with, silencing opposing perspectives, campaigning to discredit benefactors, no-platforming anyone to the right of Stalin, imagining things that don't exist such as African English literature, virtue-signalling generally, and developing a complex and ornate sense of entitlement.

GunJack

GreatApe wrote: »

If someone close to me was depressed that is probably what I would try, give them responsibilities that fill up all their time. A 60 hour active job and actives outside of work and proper home choirs inside the house (spending an hour cooking rather than an hour on Facebook eating cornflakes). Of course I could be talking out my !!!! having never experienced it myself or known anyone to go through it.

I know I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but on this one, having known someone who's been clinically depressed for the last 16 or so years, you are definitely talking out of your a!!e

economic

i suffer from clinical depression and whilst having a routine and responsibilities may manage the symptoms, it is by no means a cure. i had a cousin who had severe clinical depression and committed suicide. this is despite having a boyfriend, studying for a degree and no other health problems.

this is an example of the true reality of clinical depression:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/14/young-men-suicide-therapy

Linton

GreatApe wrote: »

You could improve the university industry massively and fairly quickly if you paid the universities on results.

So for instance you could have payment done on first 3 years graduates earnings.
Universities would not get their £9,250 annual tuition up front they would be given say £9,250 for each year their graduate earns over a specified amount post graduation. Only paid if the graduate earns 20% more than non graduates of the same age.

So the mathematics student from oxford who gets a £60k first year salary then £80k second year and £100k would see oxford get its tuition of £9,250 x 3 fully paid. Happy days

But the media studies student from Luton who is unemployed for 1 year then gets a job at Asda for £15k next year and then moves on up to Vodaphone for £16k the year after. Well that would result in a payment of £0 for Luton university

The universities would close down their worst departments and expand their better subjects and likely student numbers would shrink as the universities realize they are not actually adding any earning power to many of their students via the subjects they teach.

The universities that mostly got their students decent jobs would be fine those that just got their students average non grad jobs would be fooked.

Media studies at Luton probably has more immediate applicability to the world of work outside academia than a pure maths focussed degree from Oxford or Cambridge.

Universities dont get people good jobs. People get themselves good jobs. A university degree helps open the doors.

As to whether a degree is worth it depends on the individual. A loser will probably lose whether they take a degree or or not. Someone with the right attitude has a chance of doing well for themselves, having the right degree makes the task much easier. In some areas of work a media studies degree is far more useful than an Oxbridge maths degree.

GreatApe

Linton wrote: »

Media studies at Luton probably has more immediate applicability to the world of work outside academia than a pure maths focussed degree from Oxford or Cambridge.

Universities dont get people good jobs. People get themselves good jobs. A university degree helps open the doors.

As to whether a degree is worth it depends on the individual. A loser will probably lose whether they take a degree or or not. Someone with the right attitude has a chance of doing well for themselves, having the right degree makes the task much easier. In some areas of work a media studies degree is far more useful than an Oxbridge maths degree.

I agree both a media studies and a mathematics degree are for the most part useless

The oxford students do well because even before oxford they were in the top 5% and the Luton students do badly because even before Luton they were in the bottom 5%. Of course there will be a distribution where a few oxford grads end up in the gutter and a few Luton grads become millionaires but on average your likely success is determined before university.

The real issue is should the government be funding degrees that will cos the tax payer £60,000-£80,000 directly and perhaps another £20,000 indirectly? Could the money not be better spent on the NHS or to lower the deficit?

Also for the students themselves surely most believe that their 3-4 year investment of time money and lost earnings are to better themselves financially in the future. If that is not happening they should be made aware of it. Right now a 17 year old needs to make an upto £80k cost decision on not much more than hope. We say adults were missold PPI and need to be compensated but a 17 year old sold a promise of a better future if they invest 4 years and £80k at luton they just need to suck it up?

[Deleted User]

Looking at the Maths syllabus at Oxford, I'm pretty sure there are some exceptionally useful jobs you could walk into - https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses-listing/mathematics?wssl=1#

Associated jobs would likely all need graduates (and post-graduate) to fill the rolls.

Media communication at the University of Bedfordshire (https://www.beds.ac.uk/howtoapply/courses/undergraduate/next-year/media-communication) looks useful, but I suspect the salaries and jobs are a fair bit different.. and also require a LOAD of unpaid work to get into. It also looks like you'd go into many jobs that wouldn't need a degree to start with.