Advice about battling with letting agency and giving notice

ThePants999

G_M wrote: »

Valid formal notice cannot be given during a fixed term tenancy (though an informal heads up of intentions in advance of the end of a FT is usually sensible).

Valid formal notice can only be served after the fixed term has expired and a subsequent periodic tenancy has commenced (ie 13th Feb).

I thought it was that valid formal notice can only be served such that the notice period ends after the fixed term? I.e. if you have a 12-month fixed term and a 2-month notice period, you could give notice after 11 months in order to leave after 13? Would be weird if you could leave after 12 or 14 months but not 13.

G_M

ThePants999 wrote: »

I thought it was that valid formal notice can only be served such that the notice period ends after the fixed term? I.e. if you have a 12-month fixed term and a 2-month notice period, you could give notice after 11 months in order to leave after 13? Would be weird if you could leave after 12 or 14 months but not 13.

This is similar to an anomaly that has challenged me before (which I'll refrain from going into here!).

However, to answer your question, you must think of your scenario as two legally quite separate contracts:
1) the 12 month fixed term contract, followed by
2) a subsequent periodic (eg monthly/weekly) contract

The fixed term does not require notice (by tenant) - the contract has a known end date, and when that end date comes, the contract ends. So notice to end the fixed term is
a) not required and
b) legally meaningless (if served)

The subsequent periodic contract commences on the day following the end of the fixed term. Legally, notice to end a contract cannot be served before that contract has started - that would be a legal nonsense (though in practice as you point out, might be convenient!).

Thus notice to end the periodic tenancy cannot be served during the fixed term tenancy.

However note that this all relates to notice served by the tenant. A S21 Notice served by a landlord is not contractual - it is Statutory (The Housing Act), and relates to the statutory possession process, rather than being part of contract law. Thus a S21 Notice can carry across from one contract to a subsequent contract.......

Isn't housing law delightful? :T

ThePants999

Hah. Superb. Thanks.

stardust09

Well, it would seem that periodic contracts are not part of my letting agency's agenda. Two weeks off the end of the fixed term tenancy and we receive a letter saying:

"If we do not hear from you within the next seven days then we will be forced to issue you with two months notice to terminate your tenancy."

And that is aimed at a property which they haven't needed to re-let for just over 9 years! I'm sure the owners would love to absorb the cost of repainting and re-carpeting a property that's had no such attention for at least 10 years +, just so it can be re-let at a decent standard. Not to mention the recent problems that have come to light with extensive woodwork in the joists in the downstairs toilet, which the plumber said could have collapsed within months (the owners won't even pay to have it investigated further so we have a temporary floor in there but the problems could have spread into the hallway and living room).

Heavy handed, or what? And the reason I haven't responded to their initial tenancy renewal letter is that 11 days on, I'm still waiting for a reply to how the tenancy can be renewed without me as a joint tenant but keeping my housemates safely in place. The guy at the agency was going to talk to his colleague and 'get back to me'.

I can't wait to get rid of them.

G_M

As previously advised (did you read the link?) a periodic tenancy commences automatically. No agreement is required by the landlord or agent.

However, a periodic tenancy has limited security and yes, 2 months notice can be served on the tenant via a S21 Notice.

Financially, this makes little sense for the landlord (as you point out).

However it makes perfect sense for an agent (who gets to charge the landlord tenant-find services, and possibly other maintenance services between tenants if the LL is absentee.)

So a lot depends on the contract the LL has with the agent - if the LL has delegated all decision-making to the agent, the agent can do as he pleases.....

Talk to the LL direct?

stardust09

G_M wrote: »

As previously advised (did you read the link?) a periodic tenancy commences automatically. No agreement is required by the landlord or agent.

However, a periodic tenancy has limited security and yes, 2 months notice can be served on the tenant via a S21 Notice.

Financially, this makes little sense for the landlord (as you point out).

However it makes perfect sense for an agent (who gets to charge the landlord tenant-find services, and possibly other maintenance services between tenants if the LL is absentee.)

So a lot depends on the contract the LL has with the agent - if the LL has delegated all decision-making to the agent, the agent can do as he pleases.....

Talk to the LL direct?

Hi G_M. Yes, I did read the link. Thank you for all your advice to-date. However, the letting agency seem to have different ideas and are threatening a s.21 if we don't sign another 6 month agreement. They don't want anything to happen automatically that isn't in their best financial interests so they won't let it happen! The agency have full control over all the decision making so talking to the landlord will have limited benefit. The guaranteed rent scheme means the letting agency become the landlord's tenants and sub-let to us, so their decision is final.

I need to speak to them again and get them to agree to release me from the next tenancy agreement without jeopardising my housemates' security. I am never house sharing again in my life - it is too complicated.

tim123456789

stardust09 wrote: »

Hi G_M. Yes, I did read the link. Thank you for all your advice to-date. However, the letting agency seem to have different ideas and are threatening a s.21 if we don't sign another 6 month agreement. They don't want anything to happen automatically that isn't in their best financial interests so they won't let it happen! The agency have full control over all the decision making

Of course they don't

they are the agent of the LL, not his master

if they issue an eviction notice against his wishes they will be on the wrong end of legal writ (well should be anyway)

Pixie5740

Ah, I see, this is one of these schemes where the letting agent really is your landlord and you are a sub-tenant. The letting agent can't physically stop a periodic tenancy from happening. Yes they can issue a Section 21 but that by itself doesn't end the tenancy, that can only be done by you (the tenant) or a court.

Your set-up where tenants have come and gone and the the tenancy not correctly assigned it might be better for you to just move out whilst the remaining tenants sign a new tenancy agreement. I know moving twice instead of just once will be a PITA but I think compared to dealing with this letting agent moving twice will be the lesser of two evils.

G_M

tim123456789 wrote: »

Of course they don't

they are the agent of the LL, not his master

if they issue an eviction notice against his wishes they will be on the wrong end of legal writ (well should be anyway)

No.

It seems the 'owner' has let the property under a commercial tenancy to the company (which calls itself an agency).

That company then grants an AST to the OP, so the 'agency' is in reality the OP's landlord. I assume that the contract specifies the name of 'The Landlord' as [agency name]?

Because of this, the threat of a S21 may well be just be a threat.

Suppose:
* you ignore the offer to renew
* your tenancy becomes periodic automatically on the day following the end of the fixed term
* the 'agency' (your landlord) serves a S21 Notice
* they wait 2 months, then apply to court for possession (which costs money)
* they gain possession and (let's say) you leave without requiring the cost of bailifs
* they then have tospend money finding a new tenant
* they lose rent during this period
* they probobly have to clean/paint etc the property to attract a new tenant

During all this time, and cost, they are still having to pay rent to the 'owner' under the commercial tenancy (guarnteed rent scheme). Why would they do that when the alternative is to leave you be, paying ongoing rent?

I suspect they'd prefer you sign a new fixed term, and are threatening a S21 - but actually following up the threat.........?

Just stall. Make excuses (the dog ate the renewal tenancy please send another), until your periodic tenancy arises.

SerialRenter

I've been in a similar situation before where the agency wished to impose a new fixed term upon us.

Stick to your guns and wait it out. If your agents are anything like mine were, they'll bother you incessantly, threatened to evict you, tell you going onto a periodic tenancy is impossible.

Ignore it all & call their bluff.

You're quite right to say it makes zero financial sense to evict good tenants that are not causing damage to the property and are paying fully and on time.

In our case, they continued for a few months afterwards, even sending us invoices for the renewal fee for a contract we hadn't signed/agreed to. But it'll all return to normality shortly.

Good luck.