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g24 parking in homebase reply
markbam
Posts: 5 Forumite
hi after receiving letter saying i overstayed the 2 hours parking i was allowed at homebase, I replied using template on this site. Now i have received email[below] i was just looking for advice on what to do next. I am writing to store manager of Homebase aswell.
RE: Contractual Parking Charge Notice 261161231024
Thank you for your email.
The nature of our contract with our client is confidential but will be supplied during any Court proceedings.
A copy of our signage will be provided in any Court proceedings and a copy of our terms and conditions is clearly stated on the Notice to Keeper you have received.
We respond as follows :
1. In relation to your suggestion that your parking charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss we confirm we have obtained legal advice in this regard and have been advised that not only can our parking charges be justified on the basis that they are in line with the Independent Parking Committee's guidelines, and that they amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss, but they are likely to amount to liquidated damages (where the issue of pre-estimate of loss is not relevant). This is because the Court’s position is that where the parties to a contract agree to fix the amount which is to be paid by way of damages in the event of a breach of contract - which is the basis of the contract detailed on our signage - a sum stipulated in this way (particularly in circumstances where there is difficulty in calculating a precise estimation) is classed as liquidated damages. Either way, our parking charges are fully enforceable and no not amount to a “penalty”. You should also be aware that in accordance with the case of Robophone Facilities v Blank the onus of proving that an amount claimed is a penalty, rather than liquidated damages, is upon you (as the party against whom the parking charge is claimed);
2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). In order to appeal the IAS will need your parking charge number, your vehicle registration and the date the charge was originally issued. Appeals must be submitted to the IAS within 21 days of the date of this letter. Please visit
3. Again, you do not specify in which way you allege we not have authority to issue charges over the land where the car park is located. However, we can assure you that the parking management at the car park where you received a parking charge has been contracted to us. Again, we are able to confirm that we have been successfully audited by an independent assessor on behalf of the Independent Parking Committee.
The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("the Act), (Schedule 4), which governs parking on private land, provides a definition for "parking charge" and "adequate notice" of such private parking charges. The relevant sections of Schedule 4 to the Act state :
“parking charge”
(a) in the case of a relevant obligation arising under the terms of a relevant contract, means a sum in the nature of a fee or charge, and
(b) in the case of a relevant obligation arising as a result of a trespass or other tort, means a sum in the nature of damages ...
... “relevant obligation” means
(a) an obligation arising under the terms of a relevant contract; or
(b) an obligation arising, in any circumstances where there is no relevant contract, as a result of a trespass or other tort committed by parking the vehicle on the relevant land; ...
... The reference in the definition of “parking charge” to a sum in the nature of damages is to a sum of which adequate notice was given to drivers of vehicles
(when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land).
For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) “adequate notice” means notice given by:
... (b) ... the display of one or more notices which
(i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and
(ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land".
In this instance a parking charge has been issued based on the fact that the driver of your vehicle entered into a contract with us (by the act of parking the vehicle) and our signage (which states the terms and conditions of parking) having been clearly displayed in the car park.
The Act permits parking charges to be rendered on private land, and the case of Parking Eye Limited v Somerfield Stores Limited [2012] EWCA Civ 1338 (Court of Appeal) held that (taking into account inflation) the parking company was entitled to claim a parking charge of a similar amount to that which we have charged, and therefore your reference to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 is not of any relevance in the context of this parking charge.
You should also be aware that the amount of our parking charges accords within recommendations by our Trade Associations.
As we have extensively investigated this Contractual Parking Charge Notice and provided you with the results of our investigation, no further investigation will be undertaken. Any further correspondence will not receive a response, the options below are still open to you.
You now have one of the following options available to you:
1. Pay the outstanding Parking Charge. Payment of your Contractual Parking Charge Notice can be made via the payment line: 0333 733 3000 or by sending a cheque or postal order to G24 Limited, PO Box 3320, Gerrards Cross, Buckinghamshire, SL9 8WT.
2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to The Independent Appeals Service , The Independent Appeals Service provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. As you have complied with our internal appeals procedure you may use, and we will engage with, the The Independent Appeals Service Standard Appeals Service providing you lodge an appeal to them within 21 days of this rejection.
3. If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.
Customer Services
G24 Ltd
Registered in England. Company Registration number: 5457196. Registered Company address: Batchworth House, Batchworth Place, Church Street, Rickmansworth, Herts, WD3 1JE.
Any help would be appreciated
thanks
RE: Contractual Parking Charge Notice 261161231024
Thank you for your email.
The nature of our contract with our client is confidential but will be supplied during any Court proceedings.
A copy of our signage will be provided in any Court proceedings and a copy of our terms and conditions is clearly stated on the Notice to Keeper you have received.
We respond as follows :
1. In relation to your suggestion that your parking charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss we confirm we have obtained legal advice in this regard and have been advised that not only can our parking charges be justified on the basis that they are in line with the Independent Parking Committee's guidelines, and that they amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss, but they are likely to amount to liquidated damages (where the issue of pre-estimate of loss is not relevant). This is because the Court’s position is that where the parties to a contract agree to fix the amount which is to be paid by way of damages in the event of a breach of contract - which is the basis of the contract detailed on our signage - a sum stipulated in this way (particularly in circumstances where there is difficulty in calculating a precise estimation) is classed as liquidated damages. Either way, our parking charges are fully enforceable and no not amount to a “penalty”. You should also be aware that in accordance with the case of Robophone Facilities v Blank the onus of proving that an amount claimed is a penalty, rather than liquidated damages, is upon you (as the party against whom the parking charge is claimed);
2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). In order to appeal the IAS will need your parking charge number, your vehicle registration and the date the charge was originally issued. Appeals must be submitted to the IAS within 21 days of the date of this letter. Please visit
3. Again, you do not specify in which way you allege we not have authority to issue charges over the land where the car park is located. However, we can assure you that the parking management at the car park where you received a parking charge has been contracted to us. Again, we are able to confirm that we have been successfully audited by an independent assessor on behalf of the Independent Parking Committee.
The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("the Act), (Schedule 4), which governs parking on private land, provides a definition for "parking charge" and "adequate notice" of such private parking charges. The relevant sections of Schedule 4 to the Act state :
“parking charge”
(a) in the case of a relevant obligation arising under the terms of a relevant contract, means a sum in the nature of a fee or charge, and
(b) in the case of a relevant obligation arising as a result of a trespass or other tort, means a sum in the nature of damages ...
... “relevant obligation” means
(a) an obligation arising under the terms of a relevant contract; or
(b) an obligation arising, in any circumstances where there is no relevant contract, as a result of a trespass or other tort committed by parking the vehicle on the relevant land; ...
... The reference in the definition of “parking charge” to a sum in the nature of damages is to a sum of which adequate notice was given to drivers of vehicles
(when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land).
For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) “adequate notice” means notice given by:
... (b) ... the display of one or more notices which
(i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and
(ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land".
In this instance a parking charge has been issued based on the fact that the driver of your vehicle entered into a contract with us (by the act of parking the vehicle) and our signage (which states the terms and conditions of parking) having been clearly displayed in the car park.
The Act permits parking charges to be rendered on private land, and the case of Parking Eye Limited v Somerfield Stores Limited [2012] EWCA Civ 1338 (Court of Appeal) held that (taking into account inflation) the parking company was entitled to claim a parking charge of a similar amount to that which we have charged, and therefore your reference to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 is not of any relevance in the context of this parking charge.
You should also be aware that the amount of our parking charges accords within recommendations by our Trade Associations.
As we have extensively investigated this Contractual Parking Charge Notice and provided you with the results of our investigation, no further investigation will be undertaken. Any further correspondence will not receive a response, the options below are still open to you.
You now have one of the following options available to you:
1. Pay the outstanding Parking Charge. Payment of your Contractual Parking Charge Notice can be made via the payment line: 0333 733 3000 or by sending a cheque or postal order to G24 Limited, PO Box 3320, Gerrards Cross, Buckinghamshire, SL9 8WT.
2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to The Independent Appeals Service , The Independent Appeals Service provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. As you have complied with our internal appeals procedure you may use, and we will engage with, the The Independent Appeals Service Standard Appeals Service providing you lodge an appeal to them within 21 days of this rejection.
3. If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.
Customer Services
G24 Ltd
Registered in England. Company Registration number: 5457196. Registered Company address: Batchworth House, Batchworth Place, Church Street, Rickmansworth, Herts, WD3 1JE.
Any help would be appreciated
thanks
0
Comments
-
you do what it says in the NEWBIES sticky thread, and IGNORE them for 6 years unless you get an LBC or an MCOL in the meantime
but you DO complain to the store or the landholder, to get a cancellation , that is your best and only option now
so its the same stock answer we give the hundreds of other people in a similar situation as you0 -
Ive read the sticky thats where i got advice and template letter to complain . didnt see anything about ignoring for 6 years!! but there is a lot of info on there but just went to relevant info for my case ie g24 are an IPC member0
-
in england and wales anyone can issue a court case in the small claims (for ANY unpaid invoice) for up to 6 years ever since the small claims court system appeared in 1973 , hence the 6 years info (now called an MCOL due to the online internet systems we use now as opposed to paper based analogue systems of the past)
it does talk about IPC members and appealing once and then IGNORING them after that- if this is an IPC member parking firm, see post #3, there is no POPLA for you, so consumers do not get a fair appeal. Instead, just send this letter or a version of it, writing ONLY as the registered keeper, with their name and address (thanks to salmosalaris for the basis of this letter):-
SEE SEPARATE POST #3 BELOW (DO NOT BOTHER WITH THE IAS)
The 'IAS' offered by IPC companies is considered far worse than POPLA.
It is named and shamed on forum posts regularly as a 'kangaroo court' because even a strong appeal loses in almost every case. The IAS favours the parking firms and expects a mountain of evidence from the appellant. Do not use mitigating circumstances.
HO87 explains the problems with the IAS anonymous and apparently unaccountable appeals system here:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/67067144#Comment_67067144
and this is typical thread where we've discussed the issue; all agree it appears to be a 'kangaroo court':
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5149137
Here I explain my reasons why I don't recommend trying the appeal at IAS stage, except in very rare cases where you have a slam-dunk winning point:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/68548048#Comment_68548048
I say, after seeing their prima facie case, 90% of people should NOT try an acgtual appeal unless you realise you will almost certainly lose and do it for the right reasons! Do not hand the operator the 'advantage' of an IAS win. But others on here disagree and feel we need IAS losses in order to collect some ludicrous decisions to add to a complaint to the DVLA. Poll and discussion here so make your own mind up but don't expect to win the appeal - BUT WE ARE NOT SAYING PAY!:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5311944
Here Umkomaas explains your options:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/69418259#Comment_69418259
As always, DO NOT OVERLOOK THE POWER OF A COMPLAINT TO RETAILER/LANDOWNER ABOUT THESE SCUM FIRMS:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4766249
SO GET COMPLAINING.
What happens would be:
- you will most likely (unless it's a very litigious PPC) just get a series of hysterical 'pay up or else' debt collector letters, or maybe letters from the PPC themselves - see separate post about ignoring them, below. No need to panic.
or
- you might have to defend this if the PPC tries a small claim band they might be buoyed by an IAS 'win' under their belt to brandish in their evidence.
Here the Parking Prankster suggests that if you are not using the IAS (would rather not have that loss under your belt) a registered keeper should write & explain why not and offer to use the Consumer Ombudsman to resolve the dispute:
http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/consumer-ombudsman-can-deal-with.html
Disputes have been raised with the DVLA and the CTSI regarding the IAS, 'kangaroo court' so it is now perfectly legitimate to say that as a consumer you do not wish to use the IAS until the dispute is resolved and suggest an alternative ADR.
So you could write like this poster has done - but don't expect it to stop the letter chain from daft debt collector teenagers in a call centre, who need to get a real job:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/69450157#Comment_69450157
What will happen if I do not bother with the IAS stage?
- you will get a series of hysterical 'pay up or else' debt collector letters, or maybe letters from the PPC themselves - see separate post about ignoring them, below.
or
- you might be sued...
so it is all in there, except the 6 years court claim (you might be sued) which has been common knowledge for 44 years
0 -
ok thanks so to sum up appeal once, which i have , and ignore, dont bother with IAS ,and complain to homebase which i'm in middle of now.
thanks0 -
spot on , 100 % correct for any IPC member
whereas with BPA members you use POPLA as the second stage
and ALWAYS complain to th retailer , managing agent or landholder
it really is that simple (for england and wales)0 -
contacted Homebase via email yesterday ,just received phone call from the branch and they are going to cancel it.0
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Make sure you get that in writing/email it's not unknown for ppcs to carry on regardlessFrom the Plain Language Commission:
"The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"0 -
The 6 years is nothing specific to private parking so it doesn't need stating in the sticky thread. Six years is the limit for anything, how long anyone has to recover any alleged 'debt' in small claims in England & Wales.Ive read the sticky thats where i got advice and template letter to complain . didnt see anything about ignoring for 6 years!! but there is a lot of info on there but just went to relevant info for my case ie g24 are an IPC member
G24 never sue (at the time of writing this) but they are told to cancel time and again, when people complain to the landowner...which is the first piece of advice in the NEWBIES thread, first step = 'always complain to the retailer'. If the local Manager is useless and says he can't cancel, insist you KNOW they can because G24 are their agents and these scummy contracts allow retailers to cancel. If still no joy, complain to the Head Office or on Twitter/FB if the retailer has a Social Media presence.
EDIT - just seen you achieved it, as advised & predicted! Well done!!PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
yeah quite surprised they responded so quick. Cant fault homebase she did ask if I had receipt but told her i didn't and said it was fine. In my email to homebase just said I didnt want to stop using homebase because of this, but wouldn't shop there again if they couldn't help me.0
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