Advice on car park layout

Coupon-mad

You should give the PCN number in the subject line, not offer to provide it later. And a formal complaint (any formal email) should start 'Dear Sirs' or 'Dear Sir/Madam' (never 'hello').

kensiko

Thanks again C-M. Both very good points.

Originally I was using a standard contact form on their website and thought a request for someone who would deal with this to contact me would be the best option.

I have now emailed directly making it more official with all information required to get the cancellation done.

Good point on 'hello' to, my Mum always told me I was too polite

Will keep the thread updated with any outcomes.......

kensiko

Hi all

I am still waiting on a reply from the landlord of the medical practice so will post their response when/if I get it. Hopefully they will cancel the PCN but in the meantime I have heard nothing from PE since the initial appeal was done on 2nd January.

As 14 days is up on Monday what is the best course of action as I don't want them to ignore the appeal and say it's too late for POPLA if that is possible.

Unfortunately I didn't get an email when I did the online appeal as I didn't want to give them any way to contact me directly (probably incorrectly).
I did see the verification on screen that the appeal was submitted.

Just wondered what happens should I hear nothing in the early stages of next week as per:
BPC CoP 22.8:
"You must acknowledge or reply to the appeal within 14 days of receiving it. If at first you only acknowledge the appeal, or your reply does not fully resolve it, normally
we would expect you to seek the additional information you require from the motorist and accept or reject the appeal in writing not more than 35 days after the information required to resolve it has been received from the motorist."

What is the time limit for not being able to get POPLA code after the NtK if an appeal is not submitted?

Thanks.

kensiko

Hello all

I've had a response from the landowner as follows:

"Further to your emails below, you have failed to provide us with any information at all regarding the circumstances of the ticket and therefore I am not in any position to comment.

We have a parking company working at <clinic name> because the situation there before was very bad with patients missing important appointments not being able to park. Since we have had a parking company involved it has vastly improved the situation.

I have no idea where the person you represent actually parked but it is clear they have been to the site a number of times, and as they have received tickets in the past should be very clear where they are allowed to park and what is required.

The Kidney centre parking is exclusively for their staff and patients and there are a number of signs which advise this. The rest of the site allows patients to park and there are a number of signs which explain what is required. "



The parking charge notice reference was supplied to them and my draft reply for critique follows.

kensiko

Dear xxxx

Thank you for getting back to me.

I mentioned the parking charge reference in the first instance until I made contact with the correct person to deal with such inquiries to give further details regarding the notice.
As mentioned the driver was a genuine patient. Their appointment was on <date> and they entered full car registration details in the terminal at reception.
The registered keeper, <keeper name> then had a parking charge notice delivered after their details were requested from DVLA.

Having visited the car park I disagree that the signs are clear. The entrance states free parking is available if full registration details are provided 'to reception'.
The car park then bends to the left with only very similar looking signs forbidding entry to the kidney center car park. At the time of the parking event (4pm-5pm in Winter) these signs are in the dark and not illuminated meaning the car park appears to be part of the same free area as stated at the entrance.

I cannot be certain if the parking area is the reason for the parking charge notice or whether there was an issue with the terminal at reception on that day as the driver cannot be 100% exactly where they parked.

If it can be proven that the vehicle was parked in the kidney center area with ANPR photographic evidence then according to the signs no contract can be entered into.
The signs cannot be forbidding in nature as a contract must have an offer and acceptance.
The kidney center signage is written in such a way that it forbids parking rather than offering a contract, therefore there is no contract. If there is no contract, the terms of that contract cannot be enforced (the parking charge amount).

I stand by all previous comments in regards to the company you have contracted to monitor this car park. They are well known for deceiving and manipulative signage and prey on vulnerable people who legitimately require to park who are then given parking notices.

I appreciate car parks need to be monitored but a much better solution would be to only allow genuine patients access to the car park with a barrier and call function connected to all the clinics on site.

I can offer further details if you require anything else.

kensiko

Following the above 2 posts, I am looking for advice if I am going down the correct route.
I don't know if the contract (forbidding of nature) text should be sent to the landowner or kept for the POPLA appeal.

I have no idea who is reading and responding to these landowner emails so most of the text may be just completely ignored. I have said the driver was a genuine patient but it is entirely possible they were in the wrong area.

The biggest question of all I suppose is is this parking charge correct?
Assuming the driver did park in the incorrect area (which is unknown) should the registered keeper pay the charge? I personally think not as the layout and signs are confusing (see photos in first post). Just wanting to know if I am in the right and should continue this one.

Thanks again.

Fruitcake

The parking charge is most definitely NOT correct.

Time limit for getting a PoPLA code after appeal is I think 35 days. Complain to the BPA after that date if the keeper hasn't received one.

Centre, not center.

Nobody should be paying this charge. The keeper has several appeal points already because the signage is inadequate so should win at PoPLA if it comes to that.

You have already told the landlord and the NHS centre that no contract can have been formed because the signs are forbidding so you are now just dealing with intransigence and ignorance on their behalf, and money grabbing from parking lie.
You have also told them that the signage is inadequate and fails to meet the BPA guidelines.

I don't think you can do much more unless you want to threaten the three players with a claim for a DPA breach when you win at PoPLA.

kensiko

Thanks, it's great to have it written back to you in black and white like that.
It's just when you receive an email like that from the landlord it puts you in 2 minds!

Just playing devils advocate and if you owned this land but wanted to separate the areas.
What would be the best way to go about that?

Obviously this way is confusing but is there another solution?
After all the kidney area may get more visitors so they may want to segregate it for that reason.

The POPLA appeal should be won on POFA grounds anyway as the NtK didn't arrive within 14 days.
All this maybe irrelevant and I am sure the appeal will be won on technicalities but it's just infuriating that a car park can continue to run like this and get other genuine patients monies who aren't in the know.

Fruitcake

kensiko wrote: »

Thanks, it's great to have it written back to you in black and white like that.
It's just when you receive an email like that from the landlord it puts you in 2 minds!

Just playing devils advocate and if you owned this land but wanted to separate the areas.
What would be the best way to go about that?

Obviously this way is confusing but is there another solution?
After all the kidney area may get more visitors so they may want to segregate it for that reason.

The POPLA appeal should be won on POFA grounds anyway as the NtK didn't arrive within 14 days.
All this maybe irrelevant and I am sure the appeal will be won on technicalities but it's just infuriating that a car park can continue to run like this and get other genuine patients monies who aren't in the know.

If the second area is only for staff, then there should be a barrier. If it is for specific patients only, there should be gert big signs saying, KIDNEY CENTRE PATKING ONLY at its entrance.

If the NTK was too late for ANPR then it won't have a paragraph saying something like, "after 29 days ... " but will have a space as if something is missing. If this is the case with yours, then parking lie already know they have blown keeper liability and are therefore just trying it on.

kensiko

There is a sign but it's not really 'an entrance'. It's located at a turn in the car park but nothing to actually stop you. Looks similar to the entrance signs also (in post #1).
The driver is completely unaware of its existence but it has been noticed since this incident as per post #1:
Kidney sign https://i.imgsafe.org/4a6f7ce239.jpg

The '29 paragraph' does show so they are going for keeper liability.
However the NtK was delivered too late. Taking into account DVLA evidence of request the first possible day of delivery is actually after the 14 day window.

They probably thought they got it right, but didn't. Is it a strong POPLA case for that but wanted to get it cancelled via landlord and for them and the clinic to make it easier for future patients to do similar instead of the brick wall that currently operates.