First death had to deal with. Letter of wishes??

TBagpuss

the will may be valid - if it was queried then the witnesses could be asked to give statements confirming they saw her sign.
However, if it is just you and your sister, then under the intestacy rules the two of you will inherit her estate, and you can chose to follow her wishes in any event.

As others have said, with a small estate you may not need probate at all.

I do second the advice that you sister mustn't use your mum's bank account after her death.

Is your mum fretting about this, or is it your worry? If it's your mum, you may want to consider whether (depending on her level of understanding etc) it is better to simply reassure her - you may have reached a point where comfort is more important that absolute truth (and the truth is, from what you say, that you and your sister will be following her wishes, regardless of whether the will turns out to be legally valid or not, so you won't be lying to her if you reassure her that things are under control.

securityguy

If someone dies with a valid will, the will must be followed.

If someone dies without a will, there is a defined way to decide to whom the assets go (intestacy).

If someone dies leaving a document which isn't a valid will, but contains their wishes nonetheless, then if the beneficiaries in intestacy decide that they want to follow the document, rather than the rules of intestacy, then they can. There may be reasons, depending on the finances of the beneficiaries rather than the deceased, to use a deed of variation, but more often that not that would be unnecessary or would make little difference. (A DoV helps if you are the recipient of a legacy which you pass to someone else, you die within seven years and you are liable for IHT).

The problem arises if some of the beneficiaries want to follow the letter, and others don't.

Person_one

misterbarlow wrote: »

Thanks for everyone's replies...
Just to update, we noticed on the weekend that the diy will actually says
"signed by_____ on_____ " which my mother has signed, and underneath it says
"signed in the presence of "
Name_____ x2
address_____ x2
but no boxes or lines for a date for witnesses, its assuming they were there the same date as the writer of the will...
so, right or not, legal or not, two of her good friends have read it, signed it, and are willing to say they were present when she originally signed it... problem solved as far as we concerned...

Surely this is fraud?

Yorkshireman99

misterbarlow wrote: »

Thanks for everyone's replies...
Just to update, we noticed on the weekend that the diy will actually says
"signed by_____ on_____ " which my mother has signed, and underneath it says
"signed in the presence of "
Name_____ x2
address_____ x2
but no boxes or lines for a date for witnesses, its assuming they were there the same date as the writer of the will...
so, right or not, legal or not, two of her good friends have read it, signed it, and are willing to say they were present when she originally signed it... problem solved as far as we concerned...

Yes just myself and two sisters, my mother is divorced, no other children.

That is clearly fraud!

misterbarlow

Yorkshireman99 wrote: »

That is clearly fraud!

Person_one wrote: »

Surely this is fraud?

Look up any definition of fraud and they all include that is to deceive or trick, and gain an unfair or dishonest advantage, to secure unlawful gain, to obtain property or money by deception, to unfairly deprive a victim of something, etc, etc...

This is none of these things. My mother has next to no assets.
What this clearly is, is a bereaved family going through a very difficult time, wanting everything to go as smoothly as possible for them, with as little hassle as possible...

SevenOfNine

If it was a Letter of Wishes, this was totally unnecessary - they are not legal documents, don't have to be complied & definitely don't have to be 'witnessed'.

If it's a Will, well TBH misterbarlow you do what you feel is the right thing to do, who are we to judge - after all 'on your head be it' so what difference to a bunch of strangers on a forum.

Best regards at a difficult time for you & your family.

Yorkshireman99

misterbarlow wrote: »

Look up any definition of fraud and they all include that is to deceive or trick, and gain an unfair or dishonest advantage, to secure unlawful gain, to obtain property or money by deception, to unfairly deprive a victim of something, etc, etc...

This is none of these things. My mother has next to no assets.
What this clearly is, is a bereaved family going through a very difficult time, wanting everything to go as smoothly as possible for them, with as little hassle as possible...

Whatever the technical offence may be what has been done is illegal. In the grand scale of things it may be minor and the circumstances may be difficult. Unfortunately this will not excuse what in strict legal terms is conspiracy. However, given the small scale of the estate there is no need to apply for probate so you can probably get away with doing what you wish. Just be aware there is a risk albeit a small one.

Person_one

misterbarlow wrote: »

Look up any definition of fraud and they all include that is to deceive or trick, and gain an unfair or dishonest advantage, to secure unlawful gain, to obtain property or money by deception, to unfairly deprive a victim of something, etc, etc...

This is none of these things. My mother has next to no assets.
What this clearly is, is a bereaved family going through a very difficult time, wanting everything to go as smoothly as possible for them, with as little hassle as possible...

Sorry, I know you're in a tricky situation but I think it's rather unfair to have asked these family friends to have compromised themselves like this. They've forged a legal document for you, and while the likelihood is that you will all get away with it, please think hard about the risk you are asking them to shoulder for your convenience.

Yorkshireman99

Person_one wrote: »

Sorry, I know you're in a tricky situation but I think it's rather unfair to have asked these family friends to have compromised themselves like this. They've forged a legal document for you, and while the likelihood is that you will all get away with it, please think hard about the risk you are asking them to shoulder for your convenience.

You can add conspiracy to the forgery as well as attempting to pervert the course of justice. It just illustrates how easy it is for people to do this and that they are likely to get away with it.

Tuesday_Tenor

Person_one wrote: »

Sorry, I know you're in a tricky situation but I think it's rather unfair to have asked these family friends to have compromised themselves like this. They've forged a legal document for you, and while the likelihood is that you will all get away with it, please think hard about the risk you are asking them to shoulder for your convenience.

And, I believe, totally unnecessarily even for convenience, as pointed out in my post no17.

From what OP has said, I think
- OP and sisters are the only people due to inherit if mother dies intestate.
- OP and sisters are the only people who will be 'disadvantaged' by the letter of wishes (as a few items will go to others, not themselves).
- OP and sisters are in agreement about following letter of wishes.
- As neither HMRC, not anyone else, will be affected, there is nothing to stop OP and sister following the letter of wishes.

So it's not necessary to have a valid will to achieve what they want.

And it's very underhand to encourage someone to falsify a document.
In this relatively 'trivial' circumstance (no offence OP) it hardly matters.
But in another circumstance, if another family member challenged the validity of such a will and took the matter to court, then the witnesses who falsified the document could be in serious trouble.