Just wait it all out and go to court?

DrJogalog

Hi.
I have read through numerous long and complicated threads about appeals, technicalities, popla, and all the other stuff in between. I don't doubt the answers and solutions to nearly every possible type of parking charge is probably buried deep in the masses of threads and posts, but I just wanted a few peoples opinions on my situations.

I had a private parking NTK come through but had location I have never been to specified. They suggest the incident took place nearly 100 miles away from where I live in a town i've never visted. Therefore, it never happened and they can't prove it. If they do have photo's of the true contravention, it's not for the location they are claiming. All follow up leters from debt collectors and whoever else sends them out were ignored (but filed). The parking service have now issued court procedungs which I have defended by advising it never happened and there is absolutely no way they can prove it did (because it didn't). I am waiting for the response.

I also have another private parking ticket NTK which has just come through (from an ANPR in/out car park), but the incident occured over 5 months ago. So well over the 14 day limit (I believe). Again, I am going to ignore everything and if they take me to court, my argument is won with the law on my side. Right?

So, I suppose my question is. If you have a valid reason, which is easily proved, or disproved, as above (the first as they can't prive it, and the second by the dates on their letter), is there any issue with just waiting it out and take the day in court? I don't care about all the letters, they actually give me something to read as I get very little mail as everything is online nowadays. It costs them money with all the admin and i assume they have to pay the court too when they lose. It takes up none of my time except the few sentences for the court defence. Could I still lose even though both charges are not valid?

Thanks.

Guys_Dad

It's not what you believe to be true, it's what you can prove. I can't see any upside for not seeing your opponent's hand, so I would engage with the PPC, not debt collectors, to the extent of demanding their evidence.

When you actually have contravened some alleged t&c but believe you have a very strong case or mitigation, then realise you are in a lottery when you go to court.

DrJogalog

Ok, thanks for the reply. In the first instance, I deny the contravention because it never happened, so it is impossible for them to prove it. Assume they would have to do if my defense is that it never happened?

In the second, I have the proof with their own letter/NTK which is dated 5 months after the incident. If it ever goes to court, and providing the court follow the rules/laws set out before them, surely they must throw the case out/rule on my side?

Umkomaas

With respect, I think this is an extremely complacent and over-simplistic analysis. You need to read some of the cases that have been, or are currently going through the court process on MSE and on PePiPoo to see the work that is needed to have a chance of successfully defending a charge against you.

Defences have to be comprehensive, thorough and argue at a legal level. 'It wasn't me guv' won't hack it.

Stating that the NtK wasn't served for 5 months, without arguing and praying in aid the relevant law that would back you up on this, again is unlikely to be a get out of jail card. And then, if the PPC is not pursuing keeper liability, 5 months is totally irrelevant. The law allows a PPC 6 years to pursue an alleged debt.

Even if you have all your legal ducks in a row, the small claims court is often a lottery. Even the Supreme Court, in the case of Barry Beavis, went against the pre-case presumption that they would find in his favour.

DrJogalog

Thanks again for the replies. I think i'll start a new thread about the 2nd NTK. The first is already in the court so I'll have to see what happens with that one (I can't see how I lose with that as it did not happen).

Guys_Dad

Just have a look at this case http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4000104/Diabetic-pensioner-given-200-parking-fine-returning-car-six-minutes-late-felt-unwell.html

Now, given that this is a newspaper report and all the caveats that carries, the essential thing for you to grasp is that the PPC manager said that they would have cancelled the charge (except for a whopping £20 admin fee) had he had proof of the motorist's diabetes. (I don't believe it at all).

The motorist brings proof to court but the judge rules it inadmissable. Motorist loses although he was inside a 10 minute grace period (Judge obviously unaware of this and so, it appears, was motorist). Again, caveat re newspaper reporting.

See why we advise it is a lottery??

Half_way

Re the first case where you weren't there.
You will need to fully defend this as above, and i would suggest that you make some effort to contact the landowner if possible at the location where they believe they spotted your vehicle outlining what has happened, what their agents are doing, reminding them that they are jointly and severely liable for the actions of their agents, and you may put in a claim for your costs against them (as a result of the actions of their agents) for your time/costs and a breach of the data protection act.

But for now you should be putting together a defence, if you have a smartphone it may have left your location history on google maps/appple maps this may be of use.

For the Data protection issues, if you weren't there the the PPC has been careless in processing the information and has obtained your data without just cause ( a breach of the KADOE contract with the DVLA)

DrJogalog

Thank Guys Dad. I had read that story from a different link on this forum somewhere. I completely understand your point, although in that case, he tried to a argue mitigating circumstance. My first reference above is purely that it never happened and they have absolutely no way of proving it. I can't go back on that one, it's already at the court and I have replied with my simple defence. I just cannot see how that fails, otherwise it means anyone can claim against anyone, stating anything without any proof whatsoever.

Based on your advice, I am going to create a new thread about my second reference shortly. I need to reply quickly as the first "Contractual Parking Charge Notice" from a company called G24 is dated 14th of November.

Thanks again. I agree that maybe I was being too complacent and basing my thought process on some very old advice.

DrJogalog

Thanks Half_Way.
I am unable to find the landowner after a quick internet search as the only detail I have is "Middlesborough Leisue Centre High Point Estates Ltd". The only information seems to be about an aquisition by L&G in 2014. I do not know what this facility/address is which Vehicle Control Services Limited say I parked in.

I am going to try and get a reciept from the leisure centre I was actually at on this day (100 mile away), to prove I was not there. However, if I contest I was not where they say I was, surely they have to prove I was, which they cannot do and therefore their whole case is bogus. Why should I need evidence to the contrary? It should be them who heed to provide evidence.

Guys_Dad

When you get to court and the other side produces photographs of the parking incident, how could you prove that it wasn't the place they stated?

Does the PCN have any identifying marks or wording to show where it really happened?
Do they specify the wrong location in the court papers?
Can you get photos of the location proving it is place "B" and not place "A"?
Is this your local court or one that they are selecting? Push for a local court.

Believe me, you could be up against a slippery brief and lots of the legal profession stick together when amateurs ar involved. (Conversely, other judges can be most helpful)

DrJogalog

@guys_dad. They have produced no evidence at all. I can go take pictures of where i was parked on the said day and whatever pictures they do have, if any, should match what I have of the area.

The court papers say the same incorrect location (in Middlesborough).

The court papers are addressed Northampton and give no indication of any way to change that. Both myself, and Vehicle Control Service Ltd, who are the claimant (but pursued by B&W legal), have addresses in Sheffield. I don't understand where they get "Middlesborough" from at all. I believe after the court forward details of my simple defence to the claiment/pursuer, and they still push for the hearing (which would be stupid of them), I get to choose a court close to me. Right?