Changing to Joint Tenants

G_M

engjan wrote: »

You are right that a will does that, but wills can be declared invalid and they can be challenged. As joint tenants, the survivor would automatically inherit the house, even if either of these were to occur.

Unless there is something in your life that makes this likely eg close relative you've fallen out with and disinherited, this is pretty rare.

Yes, if you DIY your will the possibilities increase, but a properly drawn up will is virtually caste iron.

Keep_pedalling

G_M wrote: »

Unless there is something in your life that makes this likely eg close relative you've fallen out with and disinherited, this is pretty rare.

Yes, if you DIY your will the possibilities increase, but a properly drawn up will is virtually caste iron.

Even with a joint tenancy, there are certain circumstances where that automatic inheritance can be challenged, and it is no solution should you both dying intestate together.

By all means do it but you should still draw up wills.

getmore4less

Keep_pedalling wrote: »

Even with a joint tenancy, there are certain circumstances where that automatic inheritance can be challenged, and it is no solution should you both dying intestate together.

By all means do it but you should still draw up wills.

Also you have the IHT issues 1/2 the value does not benefit from spouse exemption and transfers without any transferable nil rate band so can become an IHT issue for the survivor as well.

often made worse by life cover which wipes out the debt.

Land_Registry

engjan wrote: »

As joint tenants, the survivor would automatically inherit the house

If you mean on the land register then No so it is vital you understand the nuances of the legal ownership (the land register) and the beneficial ownership (inheritance, wills, % shares etc)

Just because there are joint registered owners or just a sole one with no form A restriction does not mean a will or trust does not exist that impacts on the beneficial ownership.

For example if the legal ownership is put into your sole name and the form A removed you can then sell the property. IF there is a trust deed that says X and y between you all then that can still impact on the sale monies as that is where the beneficial ownership clicks in

Just wanted to pick up this point here as you had replied - I'll pick up your email and reply - will only post general comments here

Land_Registry

engjan - we received your email and I have asked the caseworker to email you a response to explain why we need what we have asked for.


I'll post again for general info once that reply has been sent

engjan

Thank you, I have received the response and read it carefully a few times. I now understand that first of all a new trust deed - a declaration of trust - is needed as a statement by the legal owners that we now hold the property as beneficial joint tenants. RX3 is then needed to remove the restriction, and ST5 to prove that the restriction is no longer required.

One thing that was confusing me was form ST5 which says 'Before a restriction in Form A in the proprietorship register can be cancelled, Land Registry must be satisfied that the restriction is no longer required. This will often be because the land is no longer subject to a trust. A trust of land exists when the formal ownership of the land (the ‘legal estate’) is separated from the underlying ownership (the ‘beneficial interest’).' In fact, what is required is the creation of a trust deed in order to remove the restriction.

I think I now know what I have to do, what kind of online template I would need to find or what specifically I should instruct a conveyancer to do (should I wish to use one). I will probably explore the former first.

If you mean on the land register then No so it is vital you understand the nuances of the legal ownership (the land register) and the beneficial ownership (inheritance, wills, % shares etc)

OK, so is 'As beneficial joint tenants, the survivor would automatically inherit the house' correct?

G_M: rare it may be, but my family have had to deal with an invalid will. And circumstances change. If I died tomorrow I've no doubt my will would stand, but would that still be true in several years time? We may get married, for instance, which would invalidate both our wills. Anyhow, I guess I'm just a belt-and-braces kind of person.

engjan

In case I haven't made it clear, we do both have wills in place.

Also you have the IHT issues 1/2 the value does not benefit from spouse exemption and transfers without any transferable nil rate band so can become an IHT issue for the survivor as well.

Are you saying that a house is treated differently for IHT purposes as beneficial joint tenants than as tenants in common?

getmore4less

engjan wrote: »

Are you saying that a house is treated differently for IHT purposes as beneficial joint tenants than as tenants in common?

Joint blocks some options available to TIC to package the share away from the survivor.

Land_Registry

engjan wrote: »

OK, so is 'As beneficial joint tenants, the survivor would automatically inherit the house' correct

Glad you got a further explanation and that seems to have made sense of it for you.

From a purely land registration perspective the legal and beneficial ownerships are quite separate. What has happened here is that when you were originally registered the form TR1 (Transfer) and application did not indicate how you wished to hold the property i.e. joint tenants or tenants in common. As a result the form A restriction is added by default although your solicitor will have been advised at the time and could have asked us to remove it - you mention it was a mistake not put right at the time.

Roll the clock forward a number of years and in order to now remove it we need to know for sure how it is held. The form A has been there all that time and a myriad of things may have happened during those years to change the situation from a mistake to a genuine need for the form A. BY providing the RX3, ST5 and trust deed/declaration of trust you remove any doubt as to how it is now to be held.

I hope you find the further details you need to draw up the required deed/declaration. Such documents are used in a variety of ways so be sure to identify one that applies to your scenario.

Shiralco

Engjan, did you manage to find a template or suitable wording for a 'deed of trust'?

We are currently in the position you described last December - we wish to convert from 'tenants in common' to 'joint tenants'. We have completed an RX3 and ST5 but are told we require a 'new or amended deed of trust'. Land Registry say they cannot help us with this and we should seek legal advice, but we would rather do it ourselves if possible.

Any advice would be welcomed.