Britannia PCN - Panicked Newbie- Help please as I did pay for ticket!

nephtine

Hi, I'm sorry this post is so long but I hope someone can help me as I'm a bit panicked and actually losing sleep over this. I have read the newbies part and FAQ's but I'm still confused as to how to approach this and with whom.

I've been slow to react because my son has been in and out of hospital this week with severe asthma, chest and head pains which has caused two overnights and 3 days and nights of no sleep for me. I only mention this because the Britannia PCN was waiting for me at home on return from our first overnighter and it's only now that I have him back home but still on overnight meds and open access, I've had a chance to even open it. It was dated 2nd Dec, must have come through letterbox on 5 Dec and it's now the 9th. It says the fine is £100 discounted to £60 if paid within 14 days of date of issue which I guess means by 18 December. So I have 9 days in which to pay or appeal. I don't even know what to base the appeal on other than I paid for 2hrs parking, I left in under 2 hrs but they may see it more to do with timing than hours paid for.

The PCN is for Monday 21st November where I parked in the flat Poole Quay car park (opposite the Lifeboat House; not the multi storey that's further up the quay that googlemaps calls Poole Quay Car Park!). Britannia says it's located at BH15 1HA. Parkopedia says it's located at BH15 8HA. When I go to street view in googlemaps and find the one I was in, the signs outside are small and white, whereas the same car park on the Britannia site has large blue signs outside but that's beside the point perhaps.

The PCN says I entered the car park at 10.43 and left at 12.20 so was parked for less than two hours. My parking ticket, which I still had in my car, was on clear display on the dashboard and says I paid £3 for 2 hours parking but ticket was purchased at 11.13 (so expiry at 13.13).

So it means a half hour passed between the time they say I entered the car park and the time at which I purchased the ticket. This may be entirely feasible. I don't know Poole well as I live in Bournemouth and rarely go there and if so, never down to the quay, only the multi storey car park in the city shopping centre. But I was attending a friend's funeral on the date of the PCN (starting at 11.30am at St James Church in Church/Thames St, BH15 1JN). It was on a day of high winds and flooding in Poole and pouring with rain. I have some difficulty walking (knee, hip and back pain) and can walk a small distance before having to stop until the pain subsides and I can continue. I obviously wanted the nearest car parking space to the church so I had to walk least distance.

The half hour between the arrival time and ticket payment could be for two valid reasons.
1. I don't know the area so drove in at 10.43 to see how big/how many spaces and whether I'd have time to drive further along the key to look at the small clusters of spaces available on quay front and on the way to the church. These were for shorter times than I needed and there weren't enough spaces at the church so I returned to the Brittania car park and parked there. So, a) the entry time is the first time I drove in and the exit time is when I left after the funeral. Shouldn't Britannia also have photos of me driving out within a few minutes of 10.43 and then returning again before paying for the ticket at 11.13?

I do remember doing this search of car parking spaces and durations but can't be sure it was on the actual day of the funeral or the day before when I had gone out the get the lay of the land but drove PAST this car park and didn't actually enter it.... only slowed down to see any signs.

2) It's possible I did enter and stay in the car park from 10.43. (Remember I said I was slow and I was thinking purely of the funeral) so I could have taken half an hour as follows: checking my notes to make sure I was in the right place for the right time, struggling to get my legs out out of the seat with the wind blowing the door back onto me; standing up outside in the weather the put on do up my coat; getting the funeral wreath and bouquet from my boot and because of the weather, having to try and put each of them into carrier bags to protect them better; put them in the front seat of the car; then looked around for the nearest pay and display machine (there seemed to only be one at the entrance); walked to that only to see how much it was to park and decide how long to get. I do remember thinking at that point it had taken me about 10 mins just to get to this point and if the funeral was at 11.30 and lasted for 30 or 40 mins, then I'd best be safe and overestimate how much I needed, especially as I'd estimated it would take me at least 15 mins to walk to the church carrying my bag & 2 bags of flowers, whereas anyone else might walk it in 5 mins. So I decided on paying for 2 hours instead of one to be on the safe side. But then I found it difficult to work out the machine! AND it was one of those you have to put your car reg into and I can never remember the last 3 letters of my reg because the whole reg is similar to my name but the last letters are in a different order. So I had to walk back to the car again to confirm the order of the last 3 letters and repeat them over and over whilst returning to the pay unit, where I finally worked out how to input the correct reg (slowly in case I mistyped it) and where the coins went and whether or not to press another button to finalise the issuing of the ticket and finding my purse and counting out the exact change and putting it in the slot ... and finally it spit a ticket out at me and I returned to the car again to display the ticket on my dashboard and collect my 2 bags of flowers too. I didn't pay any attention to the time on the ticket. I just knew I'd left sufficient time for me to walk slowly to the church and wouldn't be late.

I'm now surprised at the ticket time because I then did indeed walk painfully slowly in such bad weather and stopped multiple times to ease it but I was sat down for at least 10 mins, probably more whilst others were still arriving and before the family arrived and the service started. Possibly the family and the service were delayed because of the bad weather and flooding. But I can't see how all of that happened between 11.13 and 11.30 - that's 18mins with me taking at least 15 mins to have walked from the car park to the church.

In this case, yes it possibly and probably did take me half an hour from driving in and finding the right space to paying for the ticket.

Even so, I paid for 2 hours parking. Even if I go by the 10.43 arrival time to the final departure time of 12.20, I'm still within my 2 hours paid for. The only offence I can think of that I seem to have committed is that either I drove in and out again and returned later and parked. I obviously didn't pay the first time because I didn't park - I just looked to see how many spaces and left but returned later and did park and pay. I can't confirm this myself as I've only been given one entry and one exit pic and time.

OR

I drove in at 10.43 and took half an hour to pay for a ticket because of all the aforesaid. But I still paid for 2 hrs and left within 2 hours (at 12.20) even though I didn't get to pay for the ticket till 11.13.

Can they fine me for this? A friend says they'll look at it as I got a half hour's unpaid for parking before I paid at 11.13 so technically could have parked, according to the ticket, until 13.13 so could have had an extra half hour of free parking. But this was never my intention, nor had I even considered that aspect until he mentioned it. I've even considered paying, just to end the stress it's causing me, even though I need the money for Christmas.

By the way, I couldn't see any other signs around the car park. I've looked through the googlemap photos too and can only see the sign outside the entry and on the inside above the pay unit. I didn't notice if there were any other terms and conditions on that one as I was purely looking at what I needed to pay and trying to work out the machine!

So, where do I go from here please? I hate the worry of this hanging over me on top of my son's health and needing this money for Christmas rather than being fined for possibly taking too long to walk to pay unit several times and back. In hindsight I could only have sped this part up if I'd not also got the flowers out of the boot and put them carefully into carrier bags and onto the front seat before starting the walk to the pay unit the first time! I've never ever even considered there's a limited "grace" time for which to pay for the ticket but I suppose there must be but surely the fact that I paid for more than the amount of time I was parked for says something in my favour?

I did do an advanced search for Poole on here and found another poster regarding the same car park and Britannia. His complaint seemed to be based on time calibration of the machine/images. I'm not really debating the entry time or exit time, just that in case 1, I could have left and returned so there could be other images of that and if not, does that mean I didn't leave and return again or only that they don't have the images of that. Also the poster then said he'd try getting Poole Quay to cancel the fine but doesn't return to say if and how he did this. I do wish I could just ring Poole Quay or Britannia and explain this to them, my nature being honest and just wanting this dealt with quickly.

I have just tried to upload the photos I've taken on the PCN and of my paid ticket but it's asking for a URL that they're on, whereas mine are just jpegs on my laptop. Can anyone also help me get these up if needed please?

Many thanks for reading and for any advice you can give or any compilation of anything you can help me put together as my head is imploding with all of this!

Carthesis

First, stop panicking. This isn't that big a deal, really.

Second - and forgive the question - but are you Registered as disabled? It makes a bit of a difference in this case.

Thirdly - depending on the parking system in use, the cameras might have only picked up the time past the cameras, not the time parked.

There are lots of strands to fight this on, but you need to be aware that it is likely that whatever appeal you write, it will get rejected by Britannia. As they are BPA members, they will then issue you with a POPLA code, which is a semi-independant appeals service which the forum has a very good success record with.

Read the **NEWBIES** thread and then prepare the template letter you'll find on there for BPA members for your appeal. Don't change anything, and certainly don't call the operator. NEVER EVER EVER ADMIT WHO WAS DRIVING!!

nephtine

Thank you Carthesis. Question forgiven. No, I'm not registered disabled. I saw a doctor years ago about the walking and back pain and was simply told to lose weight! Too embarrassed to go back since. Plus I feel a bit loathe to admit it's gotten this bad!

I will indeed now look for the template. I understand from what I read before that Britannia will reject it and I'll have to do a POPLA appeal. I was hoping I could avoid that by ringing someone and explaining. Even if that was that simply Poole Quay but don't know WHO at Poole Quay?

Is there any other relevant information I can physically gather by myself, like driving back over there (and parking in one of the short term spaces nearby) and looking for other signs/seeing what they say/take actual current photos of my own rather than use googlemap ones which may be out of date etc? I just hate to have this hanging over me through Christmas even.

Umkomaas

I was hoping I could avoid that by ringing someone and explaining.

Like trying to tell a ravenous lion why you'd prefer him not to eat you!

If you can get up to date photos that would be helpful, but not if it means a lengthy journey. Britannia can be easily sorted out at POPLA, but you do have to jump through the standard hoops.

Don't worry about this.

nephtine

I'm going through the templates trying to work out which one to use and have a few questions.

Reading Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 Para 9 ... using the link provided for a postal PCN says this at para 9 then (2) then (c)

(c)describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;

and at (d) ...
(d)specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid, as at a time which is—

Do these clauses refer to the parking charges due for the time I was parked? Or to the PCN saying Parking Charge Amount Due £100 unless paid within 14 days in which case it's discounted to £60?

My PCN says
"This Parking Charge Notice is payable with respect to the above vehicle for the following alleged contravention:
Contravention: Failed to make a valid payment
Location: Poole - Quayside (ANPR)
Entry Details : 21/11/2016 at 10.43.13
Exit Details: 21/11/2016 at 12.20.06

Again, regardless of whether I've been doubled dipped or it did take me half an hour to get the ticket out of the machine (my ticket says issued 11.13) which I paid £3 in coins for, giving me up to 2 hours parking, I don't understand the contravention wording they've used.

I have made the full payment for 2 hours parking. Are they saying I didn't, at all? Or vaguely, that I did make a payment but not a valid one? What they do they mean by valid then? Surely they should explain that more clearly?

So I'm not sure what I'm accused of.

Carthesis also said "depending on the parking system in use, the cameras might have only picked up the time past the cameras, not the time parked."

To me, both the time past the cameras and the time parked are still less 2 hours. If I go by time picked up entering the first time 10.43 and exited at 12.20, that's less than the 2 hours paid for. If I go by the time the ticket was issued 11.13 - 12.20, that's obvs also less than the 2 hours paid for.

Am i missing something obvious here? The only grey area is the entry time of 10.43 to the ticket issue time of 11.13. Are they saying the issue time of the ticket means I could have stayed till 1.13 and, having been clocked at 10.43 entry, that would have amounted to 2.5hrs parking when I'd only paid for 2 hours? If my intention was to get longer parking than the time I was actually parked for, why would I have left the car park in even less time than I'd paid for, ie, paid for 2hrs, and if going by entry at 10.43 and exit 12.20, yep, definitely less than 2 hours.

Or should I not dwell on this point at this stage and only raise it at the POPLA appeal stage. Surely pointing this out to Britannia would make them explain more clearly how I have contravened?

How do I know what system is used? The sign outside said CCTV used. The Britannia website says it's car park Poole - Quayside (ANPR).

Umkomaas

Use the template posted in blue text in the sticky. Keep all your powder dry for POPLA.

You're overthinking this.

Coupon-mad

At POPLA stage, focus on para 8 or 9, (2)f as the statutory warning that is very likely not on the PCN. Not the more difficult to argue omissions.

Also the fact there were no signs in the car park - I know a Britannia site with none. And yes, they issue PCNs and they get DVLA data.

Redx

a lot of these parking issues are not "fair", but it wont wash with your PPC or with POPLA

as mentioned in your previous pcn, just use the blue text initial appeal from the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread to the PPC, appealing as KEEPER (not driver) keep your ammo for POPLA

if they refuse to cancel and issue a popla code, then draft your popla appeal and post it on here for critique

also complain to the landowner and try for a cancellation, this is your best option (it is for everybody who gets a private pcn)

do not miss the appeal deadlines however

and please edit your post to remove any hint of who was driving , plus use the carriage return key to put some space between your paragraphs (like the bottom one for example) , so people can read them easily (like my reply here) and the more that read it , the better the help you will receive in return

Quentin

Throughout here you are advised never to reveal who was driving

You need to edit your post to remove details of who was driving

The ppcs monitor this forum and can use your posts against you

Umkomaas

I would start a brand new thread or you might start getting advice pertaining to your original issue from 2016 - confusing and possibly costly.

When you do post on your new thread, please paragraph the detail as you are drifting (above) towards a complete wall of text which is difficult to read.

Quentin

Now you have duplicated your post (???) you need to edit both of them (deleting this duplication would be easiest!)