On-grid domestic battery storage

Martyn1981

mmmmikey wrote: »

I have a very similar view - 12 to 15 years seems about right at today's prices, hence my comment of having a fighting chance but no certainty.

One great big unknown in all of this is what happens to tariff structures. Based on other posts folks have made here pointing to official data, it seems reasonable to assume that, over the next few years, average electricity prices will remain at about today's level, with the exception of "natural" inflation which is more or less balanced out by interest rates and the opportunity cost of lost interest on any savings used to buy the battery.

But - and it's a big but - there are a million or smart meters out there and like them or loath them it's a fair guess there are a lot more to come. This opens up the way for more and more time of use tariffs. Let's say instead of paying a flat rate of 13p per kWh you pay a rate between 5p and 20p per kWh depending on time of day. Given that energy company profits are effectively regulated this is likely to result in a bill that is about the same if you assume that average prices remain the same. Logically, you'd use the battery at a time when you were saving 20p per kWh, which makes the case much more attractive.

Sorry for fussing, but having started this thread I've been paranoid not to suggest an economical return, in case I mislead anyone. But your 12-15yr suggestion seems fair, and I've done all my calcs based on warranted life, which I know is unrealistic, but again, worried about misleading.

Regarding those time of use rates, somewhere, way back I mentioned a package which was (I hope I get this right) 5p at night, 12p or 13p through the day, but 25p week day evenings, for four hours.

Based on that I could see batteries being excellent, with PV in the summer covering that evening period, and night rate charging of batts to avoid it in the winter, and possibly if battery wear/cost is OK, the 12p period too.

The downside as i recall was a pretty damn high standing charge.


Odd question, and I'm basing this entirely on what EV'ers and EV news reports, but is it safe(r) to suggest batts will last well past 10yrs now? I'm, thinking 20 with 70% capacity remaining, or am I getting ahead of my ski's?

Solarchaser

I dont think anyone can give cast iron guarantees, as apart from anything, the battery chemistry keeps getting tweaks.

I note the ovo v2g trial wont take gen 1 leafs as they dont like its battery chemistry.

Buuuuut... all the signs are they will last waaaaay past their warranty periods as long as they are not abused

joefizz

Solarchaser wrote: »

Joe, tbh we havent had a power cut in.... about 10 years I think, so I havent even wired up the eps on my sofar, but I assumed it would continue to charge the batteries if the solar was more than the load, I'm pretty sure I read that the lux will.

Dont know if we are talking about the same thing but from last weeks experience theres a 120 sec cutover time on the display (configurable) and it switches between outputs so if it senses anything on the input it disconnects the ups, although the actual physical switch time is obviously a lot less.


Mains power goes off, pv inverter shuts down for safety, sofar battery inverter kicks into ups mode. If you isolate the whole house from the mains and plug the pv solar into the ups output the pv might kick in (timeouts etc) and when it does, if the sofar battery is not isolated from it it will switch off the ups output, switching off the pv inverter, which switches back on the ups, which... and you could go off to infinity with that one.


Its not supposed to charge through the UPS connection (probably one of those 'this should not occur' messages on the display), it is supposed to isolate the charging/input circuit for safety... .. I did note in the past the amount of 'unrecoverable' fault codes that are listed in the manual!



I hadnt had a power cut here in about 15 years but in the last few years they have been increasing. The local substation went bang (quite literally, needed an artic with generator running for a week) so looked like an end of life scenario, upstream one was replaced last year with a scheduled power outage and there have been a few faults/brownouts this year. Id advise attaching even a trailing socket to the ups load output, at least then if it does go dark you can attach a long extension lead and run it to the fridge/freezer/light rather than trying to do it all in the dark on an unfamiliar system with perhaps limited access. Probably doing the work is the only way to guarantee it would never be needed ;-) The old saying, better to look at it than for it.

joefizz

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Sorry for fussing, but having started this thread I've been paranoid not to suggest an economical return, in case I mislead anyone. But your 12-15yr suggestion seems fair, and I've done all my calcs based on warranted life, which I know is unrealistic, but again, worried about misleading.

Well since I installed the solar, the electricity prices here have jumped almost 20%... thats brought any 'payback' time down into single figures. If it goes up even half that and savings rates drop as they have been doing and rocs and export returns keep pace with inflation then by the end of the warranty period (7 years) it could have reached break even....
...lots of ifs ands and buts there. They could cut ROCS/export completely and then forget it or decide all this free nuclear energy should be given away to us free etc etc.


One thing I do know though is that I get my quarterly electricity bill next week and like the last quarter should be in the order of a fiver....


Without rocs/fit/export it is difficult to even come close to a payback in reasonable lifetime unless prices go through the roof again and savings rates go negative....



Saying that though the economics of buying an iboost at 200 quid were never going to work for me so ymmv.


As Ive mentioned a couple of times, Ive always thought about replacing parts of the system as a matter of course but the majority of the expensive bits have been done (framing, installation, wiring, buying the physical boxes etc).
Ive just received a new pc box from dell,my old one is almost 7 years old and is a bit like triggers broom, hd replaced 6 years ago with ssd, secondary hard drive replaced at least once, cpu fan and case fan have both been replaced by quieter versions. All the original components are still in use somewhere for some other purpose (the dell I replaced it with is in the studio and the one before that is in bits in the loft for the oft vaunted home media system Ive threatened to make every winter since.)


Im quite heavy on rechargeable aas and although they drop off after about 3 years of use (abuse) they still are useful for the garden leds, putting in to an old rechargeable dremel, just today recharged 4 10 year old ones I use to power a sensor light under the bathroom cabinet etc etc.


At the very least we should be able to recover most of the batteries we are all using, or sell on for spares/repair etc.

When I was in my 20s I bought a lot of stuff with lifetime guarantee, now Im happy with the lidl 3 year ones ;-) Give it another 5 years and I wont be bothered with use by dates ;-)

1961Nick

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Sorry for fussing, but having started this thread I've been paranoid not to suggest an economical return, in case I mislead anyone. But your 12-15yr suggestion seems fair, and I've done all my calcs based on warranted life, which I know is unrealistic, but again, worried about misleading.

Regarding those time of use rates, somewhere, way back I mentioned a package which was (I hope I get this right) 5p at night, 12p or 13p through the day, but 25p week day evenings, for four hours.

Based on that I could see batteries being excellent, with PV in the summer covering that evening period, and night rate charging of batts to avoid it in the winter, and possibly if battery wear/cost is OK, the 12p period too.

The downside as i recall was a pretty damn high standing charge.


Odd question, and I'm basing this entirely on what EV'ers and EV news reports, but is it safe(r) to suggest batts will last well past 10yrs now? I'm, thinking 20 with 70% capacity remaining, or am I getting ahead of my ski's?

The Octopus TOU Go Tariff is geared towards EV owners but should suit anyone with a domestic battery. Prices will obviously vary depending on location, but the 5p/13.4p (25p S/C) I've been quoted seems to be very competitive ... it wouldn't be bad without a battery! Not having a punitive peak rate tariff removes any risk of having to change your habits or trying to train your other half!

Martyn1981

Oops, still fussing, wish I'd kept my mouth shut and saved the last remnants of my dignity now.

I should have pointed out I only meant myself regarding economics and paybacks. I know that's stupid, but I worry about misleading people. Everyone else should spread the info thick and fast.

The great news now though, is that when I started this thread I think I knew very little, but perhaps a tad more than others. Now I'm like a dog trying to comprehend a smart phone. So I appreciate all the great advice from the 'doer's' and hope info on economics keeps flowing freely.

Mart (the worrier).:o

mmmmikey

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Now I'm like a dog trying to comprehend a smart phone.

I might be going a bit off topic here, but I have a cat that I've taught to use an iPad. She knows how to start the game where the mouse runs erratically across the screen and squeaks when she taps it with her paw. I have to say, though, she's not very good at remembering to plug it in and charge it up. And I expect it's going to be even harder to get her to charge it overnight using cheap rate electricity, she doesn't even seemed to have grasped the basic concepts of energy saving

Martyn1981

Just a news item on another storage trial:

Residential solar and storage set to provide flexibility in local energy market trial

Residential solar and storage is to provide flexibility to UK Power Networks (UKPN) as part of a new local energy market (LEM) trial in Brixton.

Elmore House – a block of flats in South London – is already taking part in Project CommUNITY, a peer-to-peer energy trading trial run by EDF that sees residents trade energy generated from solar and stored in batteries between each other.

Now that project will go one step further, with an LEM to run out of the flats, testing how residents can support local power supplies by offering flexible power services to respond to supply and demand. The project, dubbed Urban Energy Club, is being run by EDF, UKPN and Repowering London.

shavy65

Anyone heard of projectsolarUk ltd?
Got a flier through the door last week, they`re working in partnership with Duracell to provide domestic battery storage.
Not much info except: -

Scalable up to 6 KW
Continuous 3 KW
10 year warranty on battery

No mention of price, think they`re based in Staffordshire.

Hexane

shavy65 wrote: »

Anyone heard of projectsolarUk ltd?

There was or is a company called Project Solar who have received some negative commentary on this forum:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5257124/project-solar-panels-quote
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5953765/zanussi-solar-quote-6kw-system
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5921820/project-solar-quote-install
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5925262/how-many-solars-price-as-well
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5923050/project-solar-duracell-solar-panels
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5919271/first-time-solar-first-time-poster

Don't know if the company you name is the same or a different company?