My 3 year biting other kids at Nursery School but aggresive sister... some advice?

blue_monkey_2

For the 2nd time this week I have been called into school. My son, who is 3 1/2, does mornings at the school Nursery and hates going. He started going to a preschool session when he was 2 and was fine initially but when loads of little ones started he suddenly started hating going. If he is playing with something and he gets it taken off him he will fly into a rage and bite the taker.

Only it seems that the biting at school this week has been unprovoked as far as they can make out. He is the youngest there and I thought this might make a difference but it seems not. Getting him in the door is a struggle but they have told me that he is getting better. he hates anything structured and wants to be playing with cars or trains all the time and will not really take part in anything else. If he is doing either of these he is happy, anything else he is not interested in. when he was a baby I used to take my daughter to arts and crafts and also music makers but my son was so disruptive (I don't have childcare or people to help look after them for things like this) at Music Makers he used to run around destroying the classroom and at the arts and crafts he even emptied a bowl of washing hand water on the floor, I decided at this point not to bother going again as I was sick of going around apologising for his behaviour.

My daughter (5 in November) and my son (4 in Feb) are very physical with each other, if one is playing with something and the other even dares to touch it a full scale fist fight will break out - I do have to say that I think my daughter is the fuel that stoke this fire but I have always actively encouranged them to be loving towards each other. My son will even bite her as I have mentioned above if she tries to touch a toy - she pushes his head away and the whole thing turns into a laughing/screaming/fighting 'game' with him trying to bite her. She is just as bad though and they are both currently sporting biting war wounds because I have turned my back for more than a mere nanosecond. However, they can play nicely together and I do not want to discourage this.

Unless I am there watching them 24/7 there is no way of stopping this before it happens as either of them can just decide they have had enough and snap back with fists or teeth. I guess I need to be very strict now and impose a definate no hitting, biting or shouting rule (the last is going to be a hard one but if the shouting stops will the violence?). I already give time out but if they hit I am going to give an immediate time out no warning. At the moment they are sent to the stairs and because it is tucked away they will either do a runner or roll around on the floor so I have to go get them or put them back on the stair. Either way they are getting attention and they get what they want (maybe?). I am not keen on sending them to their room as they will only play with toys in there and I can't remove them as I have nowhere to put them. So, please can you give me some advice on the best way to impliment this. My husband just called and I have told him that we have to get tough include no shouting and that includes us at them. We have the odd raised voice and we do not swear or threaten each other at all so there is nothing from our behaviour that the kids could learn from - or if there is it is not obvious that I can see, so I can't understand why they are like this.

In the evening we sit down and they have time with me (unless they are naughty) when I read a story they have each chosen but because of school and them going to bed early (we are upstairs by 6.15 each night) there is little time with cooking dinner inbetween this to have one on one time individually.

Any pointers you can give would be most appreciated. I do realise that to get to the bottom of this I need to stop my elder daughter attacking my son physically and for him to stop using his teeth in anger but I want to make sure I get this right. He is clambering over me at the moment but I have made it clear I am cross with him for biting so have told him to get down and ignore him, he usually has a treat after school which he did nt have today. After he did it in Tuesday and could not have the treat he howled for ages and I thought this might help but it seems now. Surely if he has had the last 18 months to try and be more socialable and interact with other children then he should be able to by now - or am I expecting too much. Just how long do you stay 'agry' at them for and stop their treats. If they get everything re-instated after 10 minutes how can they learn anything from this.

Experiences from mums with other 'biters' and when they actually stopped and how they stopped would be appreciated. I am getting embarrassed and worried about going to go get him and am worried that he might get excluded sooner rather than later.

The Nursery teacher told me that he had a good day yesterday and I should focus on that but I want to nip this in the bud now as it has been going on for long enough. Thanks.

Oh and I have tried reward charts but neither is interested in these, neither are they that interested in stickers as rewards, I have even had them rip rewards charts from the wall and rip and screw them up when they was given a naughty face at the end of the day. So what now??

Crispy_Ambulance

(((hugs)))

MY little boy used to bite and it is horrible. You feel awful as a parent and it isn't nice.

However, both your kids are only really little. He will grow out of it, but right now, he will find it very difficult to control his temper. There are plenty of adults who have still not learned to do that.

The only thing you can do is to tell him that it is wrong and remove him from the situation for a moment, so he understands. Personally, I don't think delayed punishments work too well with little ones - by the time the punishment comes around, they can't remember what they did wrong.

Keep praising the good behaviour and ignoring as much of the bad as you can (not easy I know, I don't always do that!) and remember that this phase, like all phases, will pass.

Coupon-mad

My DS1 used to bite other children too, from the age of 2 until 3. Once we arrived at a little friend's party and I hadn't even sat down with his baby sister when there was a scream from the other side of the room - he had bitten a chubby girl's calf soooo badly the teethmarks were purple on her leg, almost bleeding and so bruised. I was mortified and took him home.

After that I decided to be a 'woman on a mission'. I used to take him to tumbletots and proceeded to stay just 1 foot away from him ALL the time, and to act ready for him to bite every child near enough. I asked a trusted friend to keep an eye on his baby sister in her carseat at the side, or a member of tumbletots staff would watch her as they knew the problem I was addressing.

In the end he was so frustrated as he did try to bite some legs and arms that were 'in his way' but EVERY time I put my flat palm in between to stop him and very briefly cover his mouth (without getting bitten myself). I took him aside every time and told him firmly NOT to bite, it will hurt people and would be very naughty. He had extremely good language at the age of 2 and could make himself understood perfectly BTW, so it wasn't that he couldn't express himself or anything.

DS1 was very like you describe your son, blue_monkey, he would have wrecked a craft group too if I had dared to take him. He also disliked nursery and wouldn't sit still for stories etc, they just weren't his thing (he loved dinosaurs & knew all the names, lol!). Thing is, if you say your son HATES going to nursery I think you should actually take him out of that one if you can. If he is unhappy why send him there, is there another one he could change to or can you keep him at home until a space comes up elsewhere?

In hindsight, I really wish I had removed my son from his private nursery, they simply didn't understand him and he disliked it in the end. I think his time there made him so unhappyand maybe caused his biting and anger. It was clear that some of the young girls who worked there only liked little girls like my DD, they just didn't have a clue about the differences in behaviour you often get with little boys. Many activities were geared towards drawing, circle time & stories etc (I have 2 other DS's now and none of them would have liked this sort of passtime, only my DD did, but they didn't go to the same nursery as DS1).

But I held on in there, and when he started school I explained his quirky behaviour to the Reception class teacher. She was great, if he wanted to hide under the table while others painted (which he hated) she let him and ignored him as I would have done. Sometimes he fell asleep under there(!) then he was praised when he rejoined the class group later, no daily tellings off like he got at nursery for not toeing the line.

And the good news for you is that he had outgrown the biting by the age of 4 anyway (maybe my following him like a shadow helped, maybe leaving nursery). Also he is now a happy, intelligent, funny and fairly easy-going teenager, he is energetic (but doesn't have ADHD and is not a loner, two things which the nusery wrongly said to me about him 10 years ago).

i_wanna_save_money!

Just wanted to say I am glad you are taking this situation seriously as recently both my children were bit off the same child within the space of 5 minutes and the parents both said ''All kids do it'' and that was that - no punishment or being told off or nothing.

What happened was he bit my two year old first, and while I was comforting her ( and his parents did NOTHING ) he then bit my other daughter so hard he drew blood and she had to go to hospital for a tetnus.

I said aren't you going to do anything and they said '' All kids do it - he will grow out of it''. :eek:

I know most children do bite, and they do grow out of it, but obviously they need some form of punishment too.

Please don't think I am having a go at you re: the biting as it is obvious it is worrying you and you don't want that behaviour to continue.

mrcow

Absolutely have a no shouting, no biting and no hitting rule....in the house and outside too!

I've never been a big fan of "time out" (unless it's for little ones). I think that confiscating toys is a much more effective way method of teaching a lesson. But every child is different.

Just how long do you stay 'agry' at them for and stop their treats. If they get everything re-instated after 10 minutes how can they learn anything from this.

For the rest of the day.

Your daughter is big enough to know that she shouldn't be behaving like this with him. If they are not playing nicely together, then they need to be separated until it calms down.

If must be hard. My two eldest children have alway played really nicely together, but still at times the volume can be ear splitting :eek: and they seems to bicker over the smallest of things.


I am worried about what you've said about him hating nursery. My concern is that if he's three and a half now, then will he be starting school next September? (ie. 2008?)

blue_monkey_2

Hi all,

Thanks for all of your snippets of advice. I need to say though, the Nursery school he goes to is at the school, it is the first step before he starts reception so it is not the daycare type Nursery but it is at the school he will go to. After Easter he will start staying for school lunch and then in September he will go into reception there. I was not sure I had written that in the right way, but this is it, short of him going back to the pre-school he was at before (and also hated but I could not even get him in the door there) there is nothing else as all the kids for a 6 mile radius tend to come here - there are more but in other villages a good 15 minute drive away and it is impossible for me to send my daughter to school and get him to nursery. this really is the only choice.

So, this afternoon has been interesting. My son will play quiet happily on his own but once my daughter gets in it is like everything else breaks loose, I think he just likes being and playing on his own. He is not really into storytime and the like as the above poster - he just wants to be running around and playing.

Once I get angry I tend to stay like that for the best part of the day and I felt bad for that. you see on supernanny that you punish them for 10 minutes and give them a cuddle and everything is back to 'normal' but I can't be like that. I like to make them suffer, LOL.

This afternoon my son got the play doh out and my daughter comes home from school, takes over the table and takes the stuff he is playing with, if he ties to take it back she hits him and then the fight breaks out. They have both been on time out this evening and I am getting very strict with it and I am going to stick to it as well. I do think my daughter is the one who has made him like this but she does not take it to school with her and has always been an angel (until the last 2 weeks but that's another story!!) and does most of her terrorising here. I know I have a fight on my hands so it starts now and I am going to be very strict on the no hitting, no biting, no shouting rule otherwise they are going to turn into a couple of reprobates!!

there is no way I would let him get aay with biting though - I even apologised to the girls mum personally this morning as I feel awful and responsible for him having done it and it is not something I want him doing all the time.

So, fingers crossed we can get him out of this and that he starts behaving normally soon. I hate the mornings from when I get up until I pick him up and have him in my hand to know he has not done anything else.

Thanks for helping me with this.

ailuro2

blue_monkey wrote: »

I do think my daughter is the one who has made him like this

I hate to use this out of context, but I have to ask has your daughter really made your son like this?

Your DD being allowed to behave this way has perhaps set a poor example to her younger brother,but isn't she only 1 1/2 years older than him?

I appreciate you are trying very hard, but perhaps you could try to step back and take a look at what went wrong with this afternoon. Big sis was able to take his playdoh away. Could you have got him to put some aside for her, for when she came home, these pieces were to be especially for her, and if they played nicely (no mention of 'don't fight') you would then give them lots of praise and a special treat to reward them- a gold star on the reward chart perhaps? Or getting to choose what was for dinner? (The last one works with my DD because it lets her choose for the rest of the family.)

I know we don't know your kids, and it's difficult to know how you react to them, but I have always found honey caught more flies than vinegar when it comes to getting kids to behave. Always reward good behaviour, stay consistent with poor behaviour, and try to get to the bottom of why they are doing it- is it for attention,or to get more time with you than their sibling? Try to praise them every time they do something right- they will soo find out they get many extra hugs from Mummy when they are good.

I'm typing this and thinking it sounds awfully harsh, but I feel that most kids are not habitual biters. (although I agree some will be if allowed.)


When my DD goes through phases of boundary pushing I ask for my 'Good daughter' to come back and I explain I dislike having to give out punishments when she is naughty, and can she please bring the delightful daughter back into our life so we can do all the fun stuff again?

Once again sorry to sound harsh, I don't know how else to word what I'm trying to say.

blue_monkey_2

No don't worry, I understand what you are trying to say.

My son is lovely at home when she is not around, if he has friends here and she is not around he is quite happy to play nicely but when she is here he changes. The thing about the play-doh, it was not the only pot so he did not need to set it aside, there was another 4 pots of it in the draw and she knows this.

I did understand what you was getting at but maybe I phrasd what I was trying to say the wrong way. My daughter is really spiteful to him despite me trying to make sure I have kept them both involved in everything since birth - there is 14 months between them. Although she behaves this way it is not something we allow - they both get punished for it as well, it just seems I spend my entire time punishing them and you turn your back and another punch s landed and my son will jump on her and fight her back (fair enough) but they will get punished for this - but you cannot police them every single minute of the day as I have other stuff I need to be getting on with. In the time it toook me to go downstairs the otherday there was a fight and my daughter came downstairs with a nosebleed where my son had hit her. But they do get punished for fighting, this is what I am trying to say the whole day is an endless round of punishments and time outs. Also, if you miss who threw the first punch you can't punish what you did not see unless someone has a physical injury to prove it. If you know what I mean.

I try to explain to them, I have taken toys away, I took her craft box away once and it ended up her not having it for over 2 weeks and even the promise of her getting it back never made her behave herself for more than a day. So, where am I going wrong in that everyone else can ask their kids to be good and they are where mine are tinged with evil and never do what I am asking. If they are really on and on at me I now walk out of the house and hide in the front garden (i am sure the neighbours think i am nuts) but they think I've gone out without them and it stops them fighting enough to get my head together. I am sure that won't last for long once they figure out what I am doing though.

I do give them hugs when they are good, I always do all of this but nothing works at all. I don't think it is for attention as I am a stay at home mum - they have me all the time and I don't go out socially and the like, this does not bother me and the kids are my life but I do wonder if this is why they are like this at times. I don't want to spend my days peed off I want to enjoy it, I don't want to spend my days dreading going to get him to and from nursery. I just am at a loss as to what to do next as all the years of punishments don;t seem to work.

I have to admit, I don't really have anything I can take away from them except toys (which I already do if they are very naughty), we don't really go places that are 'treats' as we do not have the money to and the only 'big' punishments are them not being able to go to parties and the like or visiting friends and as this is m only social life outside of the school gates if I do this then I lose out too. Because I am having trouble getting them both to school I promised them a McDonalds on Friday night if they were very good through the week. By Monday we was not going so unless I find something else to bribe them with then that is it.

My son gets a cup of chocolate milk and a biscuit after school if he has been good, when he first bit I told him her could not have it and he was devastated and cried for ages - I thought this might be an incentive, but clearly it isn't as he did it again today. I did not let him have anything from 'the treat cupboard' at all but on the other side of the coin, don't want to be plying the kids with sweets and biscuits just to keep them being good. The sugar brings a while new set of problems, hence them not having them in the first place.

it isn't diet either as I cook most of my own meals from scratch so I know what is in them.

Oh, I have to add, that when I say fighting in some respects I do just mean bickering and arguing - when it gets physical I always intervene and this is where the punishments come in. I didn't word it very well, sorry. I gather you have to let them get on with the bickering unless it gets out of control.

ailuro2

Don't give her the opportunity to be spiteful, when you are present. Yes, she knew there was another tub of playdoh in the drawer, but if you had left a tub out and told them both it was for her then she would have felt 'recognised' and also you have then silently sent the message 'this one is yours,don't take your brothers' ( I believe that saying ''here's a tub of playdoh to stop you stealing your brothers'' is an invitation to do just that!)

If you are a SAHM, then you are in a great position to deal with things now before they get older and set in their ways. Before the lighter nights disappear completely, how about this suggestion?

Try to get the housework done while they are in nursery/school. Have a simple picnic tea ready and wrapped up in the fridge. When they get home tell them you are all going to sit down and play nicely together for half an hour, and when they play nicely and share well they will get a picnic tea in the park /the garden/whereever they choose. Sit and play with them, don't turn your back for a minute, and be very polite asking them to pass theings to you, and offering them the things back when you have finished,i.e. lead by example.Praise them when they do the same. They both know how to behave well separately, but perhaps they need you to remind them how to play together and earn a reward for doing it nicely?
Keep repeating this and gradually reduce the level of reward until you can leave them to play (within eyeshot) nicely while you do something else.A sticker chart doesn't even need stickers- you can draw in a smiley face every time they are good. Count them up at the end of the week to see who gets to choose what they watch on TV after tea that day.;)

You see, incentives don't have to cost anything. A trip to the park with a picnic uses food you'd have given them anyway. Same goes for playing a board game with them, or 'I spy' (great game at their ages!)
Teaching your DD to do skoobies/finger crocheting while her little brother does something else, then letting her have a go while you play with him ensures they both get time with you by themselves- maybe this is what they are trying to get when they behave badly?

p.s. You might be happy as a SAHM but it would probably do you a power of good to get them babysat for an hour or two while you went out and had some 'me' time.

blue_monkey_2

Hi everyone, first time I have had to sit and do a proper post back. I promised my OH I would not spend as much on MSE as (house and my own) work is suffering, LOL, doesn't it always!! Thanks for all your lovely advice, I'll let you know what is happening now.

Well, it is now 3 days without being spoken to at the end of school, they are giving him a sticker at the end of the session if he has been good and he is bringing it home and sticking it on the mantlepiece. it isn't looking too pretty but it is giving him an incentive to behave himself. he also gets his hot chocolate and a biscuit as a 'reward' when we get home. I have said if he gets 10 stickers then he will get a new toy. My daughter I am also having problems with, she came home from school again today (she is making herself sick to get the day off), but saw her brothers stickers and heard me say that he could get a new toy after 10 and I think this might give her the incentive to get on at school as well as they get well done stickers too.

I have really stuck to the no fighting, hitting, biting, slapping rule and I think it is going very well. I am pretty much on top of it when the first punch is thrown and will immediately make the child apologise to his/her sibling and then give a time out. I don't give warnings (do it again, etc... as I don't think this works for them) so they are removed from the room to sit and think about what they have done.

The only thing I have to work on is when I am telling my daughter off I get to her level to tell her and she pulls paces at me when I am speaking and that just makes me more annoyed but I am trying to ignore it. Any tips on how I deal with this would be appreciated. That is something else though. But, I do feel we have made progress as there has not been any bruises given since I started doing this so it is working, and the school are really pleased with his behaviour now. I take each day as it comes and I can do nothing more.

Thanks for your help and suggestions, while I am a SAHM I also run my business from home as well. I do this as a) it gives me something else to do other than childcare and housework and b) it will eventually bring us in extra money - well, it will soon, this is my 4th year and I think by Xmas it'll be the first time I have seen some return on the cash we paid out so we are getting there.

I don't really do work during the day, maybe the odd email, and most of my work has to be done in the evening so I don't get any spare time. Unless it is very quiet I have to get the work done else it has to be done the next day and then it breaks into the time with the kids so won't work, as a result of which i don't really go out but I am not that bothered about it. I do the odd post office run, but mainly I can do the work while they are at school and they then get me to themselves when they are here, but my parents were not very good and neither were my hubbys so we don't really have anyone to turn to for advice and help and this is where forums are good. My daughter does not get a hot school lunch so taking them for a picnic after school is not really for us as I prefer them to have a hot dinner in the evening rather than sandwiches for lunch and tea. I see mums taking chocolate down after school but if I was to do this then they would not eat their dinner so I don't do it, but we have to keep the evenings how they are now. Not having much time in the evening is new for all of us as my children go to bed at around 6.15 and have tea around 5pm so there really is not a great deal of time after school to get things done. It has only been a few weeks so we are all finding our feet around the new routine and finding how to fit this time in with making dinner and the like. I do my housework after dinner and then sit with the children for story time and to do reading ith my daughter after a bath. If I do the housework when they have gone to bed then it cuts into my working time and at the moment I have to do it this way, but, as things change who knows what will happen and maybe I won't have to do this but we are all learning from this and fingers crossed things are moving further forward for us all. Especially with the kids being injury free for the last 5 days!! Hurrah!!

Thanks ever so much once again, I am sorry I left it so long but thought I would drop in to give you an update on how it is going.

pennypinchingmum

hi i'm really pleased to hear things are getting better. i had a similar problem with my little boy at nursery but now he's started school and he is doing really well. so maybe it's just that he's an intelligent little lad and he's getting frustrated, i tried doing some basic school work at home like letters on a black board everyday and it helped him learn to focus and calm down it also gave me an opportunity to give him lots of praise which i've found naughtier kiddies need even more.
hope this helps.