Has anyone been through NHS complaints process? Advice please!

MrsMs_2

sillyvixen wrote: »

Sorry you have had this experience, I have had a simular experience with a multiple fracture - so much messing about with will operate / won't operate, that I started taking my mum (ex nurse) to appointments! Each time I went to fracture clinic they found another fracture (on second visit 2nd fracture was diagnosed on original A&E x-ray!! They were going to plate the fracture untill ct scan showed further fracture, Dr drew diagram stating shoulder fracture would need plating from shoulder to just above elbow and went to see consultant who came into the room and basically told me no surgery just physio was needed. Fracture 4 was interesting x-ray was taken by a student radiologist - who struggled to concentrate the photo on the shoulder area and as a result ended up with Half my arm in the x-ray. She called another member oaf staff and asked if the x-ray should be cut down, the answer was no, I was shown fracture 4 by a radiologist, mid shaft humerous spiral fracture (oddly enough where the pain was "referring to") back in fracture clinic nurse zooms I on fracture 4 and has conversation with my mum as to how bad it is, Dr comes in and states no fracture there! And turns of computer screen. Eventually I need surgery for all 4 fractures after 3 months. Pals us less (only there to tell you medical professionals are right in a nice way). Mum (ex nurse) states we .can Not win against the nhs as they will close ranks ,GP has been told fracture 4 never existed and won't refer me for 2nc opinion! Can't afford private consult and x-ray, my arm still clicks in the middle 3 1/2 years later!!

Nhs corruption at its best.

That sounds absolutely terrible I'm sorry you're still having issues with your shoulder and arm.

I really don't want to get to the point of having issues years down the line. It's a big worry because I need full use of my ankle to drive (my family and in-laws are not local) and I also have dogs that need walking. Without driving, I can't work and I can't afford not to be working.

MrsMs_2

softwaremad wrote: »

Omg absolutely appalled about this treatment and lack thereof you have endured.

I would file a complaint and make it a strong one send to the chucked exec of both hospitals to date.

Here's what I would do if it were me because it is imperative that this injury gets fixed beforehand it becomes a life long disability. I would get to another hospital in another area and I would not leave until someone didnsomthing proactive. I would cause a tight rucus. Disgusting that they leave someone with a break like that.

So just rock up at a&e at another health board Ina day trip etc you are in agony. And demand that you are helped and treated appropriately. Then I would get a solicitor and take those doctors down a peg or two and have them held to account for their appalling actions and lack of x. Good luck lovely. Xx

Unless I'm referred to another hospital, they won't treat me. I visited my parents local hospital (in Wales and I'm in England) and although they were willing to change my cast after hours in A&E, they wouldn't take over treatment as I'd asked for this so that I could stay with my parents instead of coming home and struggling with the stairs as my parents live in a bungalow.

Also, when I visited the second hospital after my fall, despite the hospitals only being a couple of miles apart and within the same area, they also refused to take me on as a patient unless I was referred there.

I'm not a confrontational person, and as I work in customer services, I tend to be very pleasant as I feel I'm more likely to be helped. I do feel frustrated and angry about things though, probably not helped by the fact I'm in pain, lonely and depressed as a result of being housebound!

MrsMs_2

MonkeyDr wrote: »

Hi OP

As you know, I have a lot of sympathy for your plight, and would certainly complain in your position. This post is largely in response to the previous poster.

I work in the NHS but have no experience at all of being involved in a formal complaint (thankfully), so have no idea about cover-ups or otherwise. I would be absolutely ashamed if I ever thought I was even close to that.

However, I do not think that going in all guns blazing in the right approach. Yes, be assertive, but I think it is far too difficult to tell from the information presented whether your care has actually been remiss or not. (the communication certainly has been, for sure, and it is worth investigating the rest).

Unfortunately it is just not the case that all problems are easily fixed, and it is not true that if things get worse the nasty doctors must be at fault. Bad stuff happens to nice people, and there isn't always someone to blame. Let's say condition x can be treated by y or z (one of which could well be 'do nothing'). 95 out of 100 people get better with treatment y (we can't predict which 95), but only 60 out of 100 get better with treatment z. So we should follow the evidence base and always do treatment y as it works for more people. But that will still leave 5 out of 100 people who don't get better, or get better slower. They are unlucky; they have not been treated negligently.

Of course medical negligence does exist, and bad practice should be improved, and that's why people should complain, and why more medical staff should speak up. Which they won't while our incessant blame culture persists.

But though I really know very little orthopaedics, I remember from my brief experience a decade ago that the decision to operate or not was not always straightforward. A quick bit of googling finds current advice from the US that suggests that not operating might be reasonable on pretty much any sort of ankle fracture, depending on the details (http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=a00391) - note I do not endorse this website, but it is from a respected body so is a decent source.

Demanding an instant fix at a new hospital will not be helpful. I don't know if the best management now would be surgery or not, anyway. Sometimes time does work.

Do ask for a referral to where you want to be seen. Also contact the secretary of the team in the hospital you have already been to and ask them to ensure that all notes and images are sent across (when you know where you're going). This can take a while, and is unlikely to be done automatically. Your GP probably won't have access to do it.

I hope your ankle gets better soon.

I've read about operations not being a straightforward decision. It was something I looked up when I was getting conflicting advice in the first few weeks.

When I've looked online, I've not managed to find any stories about people with similar fractures to me, that haven't been operated on, simply because the fracture goes up the bone instead of across it. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but I just couldn't find any instances where the fracture wasn't operated on when the break went up the bone.

I will make a complaint, definitely. I'll see what the next few weeks bring in terms of appointments first, just in case it does get sorted once I'm referred. But the end result will be a complaint.

I'll definitely call ahead to make sure all of my notes are sent across. I think my GP had access to everything anyway, but it's worth checking

MrsMs_2

Just in case anyone is interested in the actual injury, I think I've figured out how to share the images. The pics aren't great as they were taken on my phone.

This is 3 weeks post break:
[IMG][/img]

Most recent X-ray, so 5 months post break:
[IMG][/img]

And I've circled the break that was missed. X-rays were taken a week apart, 2nd X-ray was after a fall, and 2 hospitals said that there was no additional damage, just likely a sprain on the medial malleolus, but the bone has actually chipped off:
[IMG][/img]

MrsMs_2

Just a small update.

Saw the GP today, who was very apologetic. She got me to speak to the admin person on reception as the hospital I want to be referred to, this persons daughter has attended. Different reason, but she knows the hospital well.

I spoke to the admin person, who told me about her daughter. They couldn't refer me to the hospital I want, but I can book a private appointment in a private hospital locally and the GP is happy to write a letter, and I can request to be referred as an NHS patient to the hospital I want. This is what she had to do with her daughter as in her words, she was being "fobbed off by NHS doctors for 10 months".

I really begrudge paying £250 for this, but the hospital I want to see is one of the best for orthopaedics in the country, so I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and book it tomorrow, as I am really desperate to get this sorted and also get an unbiased opinion about what has happened.

My sister suggested that I go and stay with her or my parents temporarily (as they're near the hospital I want), and go to A&E with 'severe pain', which isn't a lie, and explain that I'm staying with my parents so cannot attend my local hospital and they may take me on as a patient that way instead. I'm just worried about that though, as I know A&E staff are really busy and I don't want to be wasting their time.

I'm going to call the private hospital tomorrow for more information and take it from there. I will most likely book it, but £250 is a lot of money to find and its frustrating for the NHS to be suggesting I go private and have this initial cost.

ripplyuk

I know it's a lot of money but often it's the only way. Your health is worth it.

The first time I went to a consultant privately, I was amazed at the difference. They actually listened to me. I ended up in tears. It was like all the frustration that had been building up for years, finally came out.

Healthcare is the only thing I'll happily get into debt for. It's also the reason I really care about my credit rating. I like to think I could get a hefty loan someday, if necessary, even if realistically I'll never be able to pay it back.

Hope it goes well. x

MrsMs_2

ripplyuk wrote: »

I know it's a lot of money but often it's the only way. Your health is worth it.

The first time I went to a consultant privately, I was amazed at the difference. They actually listened to me. I ended up in tears. It was like all the frustration that had been building up for years, finally came out.

Healthcare is the only thing I'll happily get into debt for. It's also the reason I really care about my credit rating. I like to think I could get a hefty loan someday, if necessary, even if realistically I'll never be able to pay it back.

Hope it goes well. x

I called today to ask for more information. I haven't booked it yet as I want to talk to my husband when he comes home from work tonight, but I'm 99.9% sure I'm going to book.

I just hope so badly that this can resolve everything!

Glad you've had a good experience privately. It's good to hear positive stories!

[Deleted User]

Sorry for the delay in replying, I’ve been a bit busy juggling my own complaint for a couple of days.

£10 for your records? Yeah, and the rest! The £10 fee is if you want to view you records at the hospital/surgery, if you want copies they can charge up to £50. Oh, and that’s per department, not in total. I see you’ve been to two hospitals, so with your GP records as well that’ll be £150 thank you. Then there’s all the postage, you’ll soon discover that they ignore your letters until you send a second copy by recorded delivery, so after months of being given the runaround that soon mounts up.

The Advocacy Services publish information packs for people filing complaint which you should read carefully in order to make sure you’re following the correct procedure. That in itself can be a time consuming bind, as there are loads of them, and it’s a matter of tracking down the correct advocate, not just picking whichever one you fancy. Places to try for help in finding your advocacy service are the CAB, Healthwatch and the Patients Assoc. Mine is SEAP, some of their help documents are here, but their most comprehensive guide has been deleted for some reason.

The next issue is the time limits, you have one year to file your complaint starting from the time the incident occurred, or the time you became aware of it, but you also have to wait for a reply from the NHS before you are allowed to refer your complaint to the Ombudsman. The NHS know this of course, so they don’t give you a reply until after the one year deadline has expired. In 18 months I have had just two letters of any substance, each took them over 6 months to produce, delayed by countless fob-off and procrastinating letters, and neither addressed the issues I was complaining about.

If your complaint covers more than one department of the NHS (as I see it does in your case) you are entitled to communicate with just one, and leave them to liaise with the others for you. This is another area they use to try and fob you off and give you the runaround, telling you that it’s your job to go and chase up the other parts of the system.

If you are refused access to your records, you can try complaining to the information commission, but be prepared for them to be as obstructive as the NHS. When I told them the NHS’s excuses for withholding documents are not plausible they countered by telling me that they have to accept everything the NHS says at face value because they have no powers of enforcement.

Regarding your chances of success, according to the Ombudsman’s own figures about 99% of complaints are rejected, 98% of them without any investigation. Hansard gives some insight into why, this is what MPs said when they set up the Ombudsman service in 1967:

“The Bill was always drafted to be a swiz, and now it is spelt into the Bill…………Anyone who contemplates an office of this kind is faced with the dilemma of making it either a Frankenstein or a nonentity—a Frankenstein if it has effective powers and a nonentity if it has not. The Government, quite rightly, has opted for its being a nonentity, and in that sense it is a fraud……… I congratulate the Government on its being a nonentity. A Frankenstein would, I think, have undermined the power of Ministers......”

Hansard, 24th January 1967

A complaint system deliberately designed to be fraudulent because an honest ombudsman would undermine the power of MPs

justme111

The reality is that NHS funding is inadequate and staff can not do the job properly. So how do you expect it not to impact on patients? (That's an answer to one of the posters who written that they understand how tough it is BUT it should not impact on patients). It is regretable that politicians of all sorts instead of admitting NHS limitations , discussing and establishing priorities and beinng transparent about what is and is not that can be done are engaged in lies and obfuscation. It would been far easier if we knew the score and were ready for paying when we need assistance than us having to go through rounds of frustration ending in the issue not sorted making our life miserable or paying at the end anyway.

MrsMs_2

jack_pott wrote: »

Sorry for the delay in replying, I’ve been a bit busy juggling my own complaint for a couple of days.

£10 for your records? Yeah, and the rest! The £10 fee is if you want to view you records at the hospital/surgery, if you want copies they can charge up to £50. Oh, and that’s per department, not in total. I see you’ve been to two hospitals, so with your GP records as well that’ll be £150 thank you. Then there’s all the postage, you’ll soon discover that they ignore your letters until you send a second copy by recorded delivery, so after months of being given the runaround that soon mounts up.

The Advocacy Services publish information packs for people filing complaint which you should read carefully in order to make sure you’re following the correct procedure. That in itself can be a time consuming bind, as there are loads of them, and it’s a matter of tracking down the correct advocate, not just picking whichever one you fancy. Places to try for help in finding your advocacy service are the CAB, Healthwatch and the Patients Assoc. Mine is SEAP, some of their help documents are here, but their most comprehensive guide has been deleted for some reason.

The next issue is the time limits, you have one year to file your complaint starting from the time the incident occurred, or the time you became aware of it, but you also have to wait for a reply from the NHS before you are allowed to refer your complaint to the Ombudsman. The NHS know this of course, so they don’t give you a reply until after the one year deadline has expired. In 18 months I have had just two letters of any substance, each took them over 6 months to produce, delayed by countless fob-off and procrastinating letters, and neither addressed the issues I was complaining about.

If your complaint covers more than one department of the NHS (as I see it does in your case) you are entitled to communicate with just one, and leave them to liaise with the others for you. This is another area they use to try and fob you off and give you the runaround, telling you that it’s your job to go and chase up the other parts of the system.

If you are refused access to your records, you can try complaining to the information commission, but be prepared for them to be as obstructive as the NHS. When I told them the NHS’s excuses for withholding documents are not plausible they countered by telling me that they have to accept everything the NHS says at face value because they have no powers of enforcement.

Regarding your chances of success, according to the Ombudsman’s own figures about 99% of complaints are rejected, 98% of them without any investigation. Hansard gives some insight into why, this is what MPs said when they set up the Ombudsman service in 1967:

“The Bill was always drafted to be a swiz, and now it is spelt into the Bill…………Anyone who contemplates an office of this kind is faced with the dilemma of making it either a Frankenstein or a nonentity—a Frankenstein if it has effective powers and a nonentity if it has not. The Government, quite rightly, has opted for its being a nonentity, and in that sense it is a fraud……… I congratulate the Government on its being a nonentity. A Frankenstein would, I think, have undermined the power of Ministers......”

Hansard, 24th January 1967

A complaint system deliberately designed to be fraudulent because an honest ombudsman would undermine the power of MPs

Wow. You've gone through a lot. Is there no set complaints procedure that they have to follow? For example a set time to respond to your complaint, and a set time to respond? I don't know anyone personally that has gone through the complaints process. It sounds incredibly long winded and a deterrent for people making complaints, which isn't good at all when it comes to healthcare.

I thought that the most you'd be charged to access your information is £10. I didn't realise it was different for the NHS. And per department? Ugh. Yes, I have attended 2 hospitals, my GP, and a 3rd hospital to have my cast changed when I was staying with my parents, physio, A&E, fracture clinic. you'd think that with everything being electronic, it'd all be held centrally. That's really disappointing that it isn't.

Thanks so much for your response. It gives me a lot to think about. I still really feel that it's important to make a complaint as there'd be a chance for them to improve in the future, but if it'll cost me so much time and money (to get my medical records), is it really worth it?

Definitely food for thought. Thanks so much.