MSE News: GB Energy goes bust, 160,000 customers affected

footyguy

uptdale wrote: »

This is what BACS says on the Direct Debit website:
That makes sense, because you may need a copy of the DD Instruction to know whether an error has been made and therefore whether the DD Guarantee applies. The guarantee applies "If an error is made in the payment of your Direct Debit" - which includes, but is not limited to, errors in the amount or date of payment.

As I understand it, this is not a question of the legitimacy or existence of a Direct Debit Instruction (sometimes referred to as the Direct Debit Mandate), but rather as the poster said, an issue relating to "taking the wrong amount in Direct Debit payments"

If it was a question over whether or not a DDI was legitimate, the complaint would be that the bank debited any amount at all, not that it was the wrong amount

Whatever the facts, as you correctly say

...you are entitled to an immediate refund of the amount debited from your bank under the Direct Debit Guarantee...

and this was refused by the bank, hence my advice given

Edit: Just found the site you appeared to have quoted from, and the line immediately prior to your quote says:

If a Direct Debit payment is taken and you don’t recognise the name of the organisation then follow these guidelines.

https://www.directdebit.co.uk/DirectDebitExplained/Pages/Organisationunknown.aspx
That is not what I understand is the issue that the poster raised

Edit2: This appears the section from that site that is appropriate
https://www.directdebit.co.uk/DirectDebitExplained/Pages/Incorrectpayments.aspx
which hopefully is more or less in line with the advice I provided

Pet_Troll

Sorry for the delay in replying, still no resolution from the bank nearly a week on.

Just to clarify, I had instructed GB Energy to take payments by Direct Debit to the amount of £25/month. They were taking Direct Debit payments at £83/month. (The actual amount of energy I use equates to roughly £25/month)
On my bills from GB energy it only shows a credit of £25/month but on my bank statement it shows a Debit of £83.

As far as I am concerned this is a clear indication of 'the wrong amount' being charged by Direct Debit.

The bank are still saying that the DD indemnity does not apply when a company has gone into liquidation but have provided nothing to back this up.
I raised a complaint with the bank who have since advised me it has been looked into and my complaint has been closed, they are sticking by their decision that because GB Energy are no longer trading they are not going to refund me.
I then complained publicly on social media which saw me receive a phone call (from the Glasgow complains dept.) this morning with an apology and an acknowledgement that the bank should have refunded me immediately and that as a gesture of goodwill they would refund me £83 out of their own coffers and not via the DD indemnity. When I explained that it was more than 1 month that was charged incorrectly the lady said she would have to look into it and call me back.

That bring me up to date, I am awaiting a call back before 3pm.... apparently.

EDIT: I had a call back just now, the lady said she can't do anything now because the team that deal with DD indemnity are only in Mon-Fri so she will get back to me on Monday.
I said that I didn't think that fitted in with the requirement for an 'immediate' refund as per the DD guarantee rules, but she couldn't have cared less if she tried.

slpj

Wow, reading that last post, I'm really glad I cancelled my DD as soon as I realised that GB had gone bust, and glad I then ignored the vieled threats from the co-op to reinstate my dd or they'd incresease my tarrif, and even happier that I immediately switched away from GB/Coop as soon as I heard gb were bust.

The last I heard from gb/coop, was when I rang them, and tried to get them to accept my final reading, on the day that my switch completed to the new supplier. But GB refused to take it, saying that it had to come from the new supplier. I asked when they would give me a final bill and they said they didn't know. By my reading, I owe GB/coop some money, for the g/e I used waiting to switch. But I've had no letters or emails from gb/coop at all since switching to another supplier, and if they don't chase me, I'm not going to chase them. Just glad to be shot of the pair of them.

Pet_Troll

slpj - I wish I had never gone with GB Energy now, hindsight is a wonderful thing! I have now cancelled my DD with CO-OP, (as they too were charging me the wrong amount) but I would be happy to stay with co-op at the same price I was paying GB so I need to set up a new DD and hope that they collect the correct amount this time.


Since my last post I have done some more digging. I phoned the Ombudsman who confirmed that I am covered under the DD guarantee regardless of whether GB are still trading or not, but that the only way they could force the bank to listen to them is after I have gone through all the usual complaints processes and then escalated it to the ombudsman.

I also rang the Financial Conduct Authority (on the advice of the ombudsman) who said that they don't really have anything to do with direct debits and the rules surrounding them, I tried to find out who is the authority on DD rules but didn't get much info, I was just told 'payment services directive'.
Anyway, the FCA advised that regardless of the DD guarantee I am covered under the unauthorised payments, section 5.1.11 of the Banking code of business sourcebook - see here: EDIT: I am not allowed to add links....

They also advised that, from what I had told them, my bank appeared to be in breach of principle 6 of the FCA principles for business - see here: EDIT: I am not allowed to add links....

The FCA gave me contact details for head of complaints at my bank and I have now fired off an email including all the above info.

footyguy

Pet_Troll wrote: »

Sorry for the delay in replying, still no resolution from the bank nearly a week on.

Just to clarify, I had instructed GB Energy to take payments by Direct Debit to the amount of £25/month. They were taking Direct Debit payments at £83/month. (The actual amount of energy I use equates to roughly £25/month)
On my bills from GB energy it only shows a credit of £25/month but on my bank statement it shows a Debit of £83.

As far as I am concerned this is a clear indication of 'the wrong amount' being charged by Direct Debit.

The bank are still saying that the DD indemnity does not apply when a company has gone into liquidation but have provided nothing to back this up.
I raised a complaint with the bank who have since advised me it has been looked into and my complaint has been closed, they are sticking by their decision that because GB Energy are no longer trading they are not going to refund me.
I then complained publicly on social media which saw me receive a phone call (from the Glasgow complains dept.) this morning with an apology and an acknowledgement that the bank should have refunded me immediately and that as a gesture of goodwill they would refund me £83 out of their own coffers and not via the DD indemnity. When I explained that it was more than 1 month that was charged incorrectly the lady said she would have to look into it and call me back.

That bring me up to date, I am awaiting a call back before 3pm.... apparently.

EDIT: I had a call back just now, the lady said she can't do anything now because the team that deal with DD indemnity are only in Mon-Fri so she will get back to me on Monday.
I said that I didn't think that fitted in with the requirement for an 'immediate' refund as per the DD guarantee rules, but she couldn't have cared less if she tried.

As per the bank's complaint procedure, they have up to 8 weeks to resolve any complaint you raised.
If they have closed the complaint without resolution, you can use that written notification to go direct to the financial ombudsman service
(Indeed, you should have been advised of that right with that complaint closure - if you were not, add that to the complaint you raise with the FoS)

Btw, you don't usually instruct a supplier what monthly payments to take, they tell you what they plan to take. What did the advance notice you were provided with say they would take?

footyguy

Pet_Troll wrote: »

slpj - I wish I had never gone with GB Energy now, hindsight is a wonderful thing! I have now cancelled my DD with CO-OP, (as they too were charging me the wrong amount) but I would be happy to stay with co-op at the same price I was paying GB so I need to set up a new DD and hope that they collect the correct amount this time.


Since my last post I have done some more digging. I phoned the Ombudsman who confirmed that I am covered under the DD guarantee regardless of whether GB are still trading or not, but that the only way they could force the bank to listen to them is after I have gone through all the usual complaints processes and then escalated it to the ombudsman.

I also rang the Financial Conduct Authority (on the advice of the ombudsman) who said that they don't really have anything to do with direct debits and the rules surrounding them, I tried to find out who is the authority on DD rules but didn't get much info, I was just told 'payment services directive'.
Anyway, the FCA advised that regardless of the DD guarantee I am covered under the unauthorised payments, section 5.1.11 of the Banking code of business sourcebook - see here: EDIT: I am not allowed to add links....

They also advised that, from what I had told them, my bank appeared to be in breach of principle 6 of the FCA principles for business - see here: EDIT: I am not allowed to add links....

The FCA gave me contact details for head of complaints at my bank and I have now fired off an email including all the above info.

Regarding the text I have highlighted, as I initially indicated in post#475 and confirmed in post#479 of this thread.

You appear to have "gone through all the usual complaints processes" so now it is indeed time to escalate it to the ombudsman if you still think the bank have acted erroneously.

System

GB's Ts and Cs
\
9. Payment Method

9.1 You are responsible for paying for the supply until your Contract with us ends. If you have entered into this contract together with other people, each person will be jointly and severally liable for any money owed to us.

9.2 The method of payment that applies will be determined according to the applicable tariff.

9.3 When the payment method is by Direct Debit;

9.3.1 The amount of the Direct Debit will be determined initially according to your estimated annual consumption,

9.3.2 The Direct Debit will be taken the day after the cancellation period referred to in clause 7 ends and monthly thereafter.

9.3.3 Will be adjusted to the appropriate amount following our receipt of a meter reading, supplied by you or taken by us of the actual Energy consumed at the premises

9.3.4 Advised to you following our receipt of a meter reading, supplied by you or taken by us at least 7 days prior to being collected by us.

9.3.5 We will act in accordance with the Direct Debit Guarantee.

With respect, your issue is with the supplier not your Bank. If as you suggest, GBEnergy was crediting incorrect amounts to your energy account then my advice would be to price out your Bills and bank statements and raise a formal complaint to the supplier.

uptdale

On my bills from GB energy it only shows a credit of £25/month but on my bank statement it shows a Debit of £83.

As far as I am concerned this is a clear indication of 'the wrong amount' being charged by Direct Debit.

Certainly something looks wrong there, but the key issue is whether you received advance notice of the date and amount of the payment of £83.

as a gesture of goodwill they would refund me £83 out of their own coffers and not via the DD indemnity.

It's not a gesture of goodwill, that is how the DD guarantee is supposed to work. If the guarantee has not been complied with, the bank refunds you, and tries to recover from the supplier. If the bank cannot recover the money because the supplier is insolvent, that's the bank's problem, not yours.

your issue is with the supplier not your Bank

That of course begs the question of who the supplier is (or was at the time the excessive DD was taken). If it was before 30 November the supplier was GB Energy Supply Ltd, a company now in administration, and if you have a contractual dispute with that company you will have to contact the administrator. Good luck with getting anything back from him. But Co-operative Energy also say "We will be reviewing all outstanding complaints in the next few weeks with a view to responding to customers.", so can also try your luck with them. They have said that they will honour credit balances, so if your issue is that the DD amount was correctly notified to you in advance, but you believe that the amount was too high, resulting in a credit balance, your best bet is to contact Co-operative Energy.

But if in fact the DD guarantee was not complied with, e.g. because you were not given advance notice of the amount (£83) of the payment(s) or the date of payment, your issue is with your bank. This is what BACS say (they are responsible for the DD scheme):

If a Direct Debit payment has been taken which is not in accordance with the advance notice received i.e. more has been taken than the amount specified on the advance notice or the payment has been taken on the wrong date you are entitled to an immediate refund of the amount debited from your bank under the Direct Debit Guarantee. ...
If you have any concerns (for example you believe the amount on the advance notice is incorrect) you should contact the organisation directly to resolve.

So if no advance notice of the amount taken, complain to the bank and they should refund. But if you did get advance notice of the amount actually taken, but the amount was too high, then your issue is with the supplier.

The BACS website explains what to do if your bank does not deal with your complaint properly:
https://www.directdebit.co.uk/DirectDebitExplained/Pages/Howtocomplain.aspx

denny_the_wench

I was with GB Energy for over a year but after a month of weird emails changing and then reinstating my DD amounts in October I got cold feet and as it was time to switch I did so with cashback via the MSE site and got my new supplier about a week before GB went bust. I cancelled my direct debit as their website was down and I'd decided I'd rather deal with whoever was taking over on a one to one basis without having to try and retrieve money taken after the event.

I've now had my first bill from my new supplier, got my cashback payment from the MSE switch site but last week received communications from GBEnergy regarding the small outstanding balance I have with them. Having spent a long time reading this thread it is my understanding that as they've gone bust communications regarding outstanding debt should either come from the Co-op OR the debt should be given to my new supplier?

I have the money to pay held aside but I DON'T want to pay GBEnergy only to get chased by the Co-op at a later date because the money has disappeared into a black hole of debt.
Just looking for advice on legality of holding onto payment until I'm formally contacted? and who, in the general consensus, would be the most likely person to contact me?
Thanks

facade

I am on the GBEnergy fixed 12 emerald Feb 2017. Checking my statement today it expires on 2 Feb, yet I have not heard anything from the CoOp, or GBE.

Does this mean that they can't change me to a massively expensive tariff until after they contact me, or do I need to search for a cheap tariff now and switch myself, and while the switch goes through be paying squillions for my energy?