Log of Verbal Incidents

sangie595

dannyrst wrote: »

Apologies, I'm not willing to share the exact details on the internet. I was hoping there would be a fairly high level answer to the question.

Thanks anyway.

Sorry but it isn't easy to give much more of a high level answer than you have had. At the risk of being shot down here, the problem is that this manager is likely to say that comments are being misinterpreted or exaggerated, and that it's down to this individuals mental health issues. In other words, the "it's all in his head" defence. Even with proof that doesn't stop that being said. So it's very hard to advise without an idea of the sort of comments we are talking about. And the frequency and the context.

To be honest, if you really can't talk about it here, where there is little chance if anyone ever twigging who is being talked about, then I can't see how this person will be resilient enough to withstand a grievance, even with recordings.

Join a union?

KiKi

A high level answer for you: log everything that's said, word for word where possible . You can then raise a grievance but at the end of the day it's one person's word against another. And so whoever hears that grievance would have to come to a conclusion based on listening to the people involved. Whether you choose to record the conversations to prove it or not to HR would be another thing, which I'm not sure of the legalities of (although Sangie has said above). If it's related to a MH issue, then any good HR person should know to tread more carefully. Eg, even if I thought the line manager was in the right after hearing the grievance, I'd be advising them to consider their language, the way they spoke, and to make them aware of the way they should tackle conversations relating to MH if that was, for example, what was happening. That alone *might* have some effect.

But at the end of the day, if you are certain that raising a grievance will just cause more persecution, and they're not prepared to rock that boat, then I don't see that person has any options but to look for another job for their own health's sake.

HTH - albeit at a high level!!
KiKi

sangie595

Whilst it is really hard to comment on the unknown, I kind of agree with Kiki. The problem is, you see, that a grievance could quite easily turn out just with that "advice" to the manager. Which might work. But I am old enough to recall Race Awareness Training - not often done these days. What did it achieve? Cleverer racists! If people were intent upon being racist, then it taught them what would get them into trouble, so they could steer clear of that. It didn't teach them not to be racist. And simply the act of bringing a grievance can paint a target on someone's back.

There is always a potential for a good outcome and a bad one. You have to be prepared for the latter no matter what happens. And if you can't deal with the latter, then, as Kiki says, it is better to leave it alone and either ignore it or move on.

Savvy_Sue

dannyrst wrote: »

I think you misunderstand/I explained badly. The comments are in passing, not in meetings or anything like that. Other staff are in the vicinity whilst the comments are made but they are made in a way so they cannot be heard by others. When questioned, the manager denies making the comment. It's not like the employee is shouting someone over and then questioning it.

The whole point of this thread is that I'm asking how do you make a grievance with no evidence other than what one person says happened? As it stands, there is no point raising the issue because it will just get shot down and the manager will persecute the employee more...

When the person raising the grievance has MH issues, it would be extremely difficult. It's hard enough when there are no MH issues. "My manager said ..." is either countered by "no I didn't" or "You misunderstood".

However, if there's a chance of moving teams, departments or managers, then the person could ask for that. No guarantees of course, but worth asking for IMO. I think I'd probably phrase it along the lines of "if there is any chance of being moved, I think that a fresh start on my return from sick leave would be helpful to me."

sangie595

jondav wrote: »

If you check my post, I wasn't quoting you so don't get your knickers in a twist! It was just a general question because a couple of posters had said the same thing and I was curious.

Well since it immediately followed my post it was not unreasonable to assume that it was a response to what I said - as it appeared to be. Not everybody "quotes". And with such a very aggressive response from you, perhaps you can see that it matters what was said? Your aggression is unwarranted.

sangie595

jondav wrote: »

LOL....aggressive? Oh please! I've had run-ins with you in the past and I don't care enough to get involved again, have a nice life :rotfl:

And are clearly going out of your way to provoke more, then? If you wish not to see what I post, use the ignore button instead of responding in the first place.

Your response here demonstrates very ably why communications are open to interpretation and why it matters exactly what was said and in what context.

steampowered

I'm not entirely sure why private remarks made by a manager would cause an employee to go off sick with mental health issues? There must be more to the story.

The key with remarks is "does it actually matter". Even if the employee did have proof of what was said, the remarks would need to be shown to be a breach of company policy or illegal to get anything done about them.

[Deleted User]

sangie595 wrote: »

Just to clarify that it is not illegal to record a conversation which you are a party to for your own use. But letting anyone else listen to it or giving it to someone else is!

So where does that leave someone who records granny in the care home, and sends it to the CQC? Or the journalist who does the same and then broadcasts it?

sangie595

steampowered wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure why private remarks made by a manager would cause an employee to go off sick with mental health issues? There must be more to the story.

The key with remarks is "does it actually matter". Even if the employee did have proof of what was said, the remarks would need to be shown to be a breach of company policy or illegal to get anything done about them.

Yes, although I think we can all sympathise it doesn't necessarily mean that there is something wrong here.

It could be that the manager is making comments about the mental health of that person, which in most cases would certainly be suspect. But they could equally be saying "get a move on", "hurry up" and "you're slowing everyone down". On a production line, for example, the latter comments are perfectly reasonable, although they may not be perceived that way.

Savvy Sue's suggestion of asking for a move, if practicable, may be a good option. But equally, the OP needs to be clear that the comments really are unacceptable and not just being taken wrongly, or out of context. Because if the latter is the case, it is simply likely to happen again. That's why context matters - the manager may not even appreciate what impact their words have, or the words may not in fact be the problem. Those are things we can't help with without knowing the context.

sangie595

jondav wrote: »

Just on the point of recording conversations (which is why I poked my nose in)......is it use-able say in a disciplinary, or legal even, if an employer covertly records the private conversations of their staff?

It depends what you mean by useable. The same rules apply to the employer. They can record for their own use, but not to be shared with a third party. But a transcript might be permitted in a court - that would be up to the court itself. They cannot "bug" their staff, but if there are notices saying they record images or sound they can. And there are circumstances where covert sureveillance is permitted for short period of time. Again, context matters.