Yodel courier forged my signature

usefulmale

steampowered wrote: »

The reason why I think an LBA is a good idea is because it forces the seller and Yodel to investigate the situation properly. For example, Yodel should provide a copy of the signature and details of when the package was delivered.

The OP has already seen the signature

steampowered wrote: »

If the Op did bring a small claim, it would be easy for the Op and difficult for the seller/Yodel. The court fees for small claims are pretty small. As the Op would be suing a company, the case would be allocated to the Op's local county court so he wouldn't have far to travel. He doesn't need a solicitor and it is easy for him to do it himself. That is why I think the Op is holding the cards and has leverage to get an acceptable resolution.

The OP can only sue the seller in this case, not Yodel as the OP has no contract with them. We don't know whether the seller is a company or not.

Like I said to another poster, send the OP a PM offering to cover all their losses, including refunding the original cost of the item, if you think they have a chance of winning.

[Deleted User]

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head wrote: »

I don't see any indication from the OP that they have complained directly to the depot in person.

Have you read this post? The Depot don't seem to be very "helpful" at all

Kanno wrote: »

I go to the Yodel depot again, 4th time, 19 miles. Already I visited them 3 times, nearly 120 miles and no success. Every evening i chat online with consultants but still same answer - "parcel has been delivered". !!!!!!? I worked and could not sign PoD. All my neighbours also worked, returned late hours, 6-8 pm, and parcel "has been delivered" at 13.59, and !!!!!! scribble is a proof I signed. It is not my signature

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head wrote: »

talk to the depot.They will help.

....

steampowered

usefulmale wrote: »

The OP can only sue the seller in this case, not Yodel as the OP has no contract with them.

If the Op had evidence which suggests that the Yodel courier signed for the item without authority, the Op could claim against Yodel directly, since Yodel is liable for the delivery driver's fraud regardless of who the contract is with. Proving that would be difficult though. Perhaps it is best to claim against the seller.

We don't know whether the seller is a company or not.

Agreed. If the seller is an individual rather than a company, a claim would go to the seller's local county court.

usefulmale wrote: »

Like I said to another poster, send the OP a PM offering to cover all their losses, including refunding the original cost of the item, if you think they have a chance of winning.

I think the Op has a perfectly arguable claim against the seller. The Op had a contract with the seller for the delivery of an item. The item was not delivered. That is all the Op would need to say on his 'letter before action' and claim form.

You do not need absolute proof in civil cases. Civil cases are decided on a 'balance of probabilities'. This means the judge has to decide whether it is more likely than not that the item was delivered.

The only evidence the Op will need to provide is a witness statement confirming that the item was not delivered. It will then be up to the seller to try and prove that he investigated the matter properly and that the item was delivered. If the seller cannot prove that, I think the Op is likely to win.

My personal view is that people should issue court claims much more regularly when they are getting messed around by big companies. There is no point having consumer rights and no point having contracts if people won't enforce them.

Issuing a small claim is very easy to do, it is cheap, you don't need a solicitor and the risk is low (since only very limited costs such as travel expenses are awarded in small claims track).

90% of the time companies will settle when a claim form hits their doormat. The other 10% of the time, as long as you have a reasonable case, it is worth the trip for a short hearing at the local county court to have a judge make a decision.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Moneyineptitude wrote: »

Have you read this post? The Depot don't seem to be very "helpful" at all



....

Must have missed that post, would be interesting to know what the depot have told them.

The CS reps are paid to deal with people, OP, the next guy, makes no odds, but the staff at the depot don't want the same person keep eating in to their time complaining about the same thing.

The depot should be able to speak to the driver to see where the parcel was delivered, should OP still be reading, it's best to ask for the operations manager or depot manager.

usefulmale

steampowered wrote: »

I think the Op has a perfectly arguable claim against the seller. The Op had a contract with the seller for the delivery of an item. The item was not delivered. That is all the Op would need to say on his 'letter before action' and claim form.

So what did the OP say in response to your PM offering to cover any losses they may make?

Don't worry. I know you would never send that PM.

It's all up to the OP now. They have not revisited this thread and if they charge into the unwinnable (in my opinion) case with the emotional bluster of their 1st post here, they will just crash and burn.

Gavin83

usefulmale wrote: »

So what did the OP say in response to your PM offering to cover any losses they may make?

Don't worry. I know you would never send that PM.

It's all up to the OP now. They have not revisited this thread and if they charge into the unwinnable (in my opinion) case with the emotional bluster of their 1st post here, they will just crash and burn.

Why would he send that PM? What possible reason would they have to cover the costs of anyone on here? No court case is 100% winnable, regardless of what evidence (or lack of) you provide.

I disagree with you, and agree with most on here that the OP has a solid case against the seller. Ultimately it's the OP's decision on what they wish to do but they do need to understand any court case carries an element of risk and decide if it's worth the hassle for the amount of money. Regardless of what they wish to do I would at least send a LBA though. I've been in a similar situation before but it's never gone as far as court as the seller has always settled before it's gone that far.

I sympathise with the OP and I also sympathise with the seller. As a buyer it's very frustrating when a parcel fails to arrive, especially when the seller is unwilling to do anything about it. As a seller it's frustrating as you know you've posted it and it's natural to suspect your being ripped off by the buyer. I've been in the position of both. However it is ultimately the sellers responsibility to ensure it arrives correctly and if they choose a crap courier to maximise their profits they do so accepting the risk.

unholyangel

usefulmale wrote: »

You can't prove you have not received the package but, as the potential plaintiff, they would have to. That's how cases work.

The seller need only provide the proof of delivery and signature as a defence and the seller would almost certainly win.

So you think a judge is going to believe its more likely that the OP signed their own name (not someone elses), received the parcel and then not only tried to (fraudulently) claim they didn't receive it but also (if it got as far as a judge anyway) paid out a filing fee & hearing fee despite knowing they received the parcel & signed for it in their own name? Okay then Sherlock.

As I said before, judges cannot just make up law as they go along. Generally theres a pecking order and statute is at the top. It trumps everything else. As per the statue I posted, every sales contract is to be treated as including the term that risk doesnt pass until the goods are in the consumers physical possession or someone identified by the consumer (not someone identified by the retailer or their agent).

Given the legislation states the above, the burden of proof is on the retailer to prove they did come into the physical possession of the consumer, not for the consumer to prove they didn't. Can their courier give a description that would match the OP? Can they describe the hallway decor (that they must have seen when OP opened the door to sign, right?). Can they actually prove its OP's signature given OP can prove they weren't at home at the time it was signed for?

Again (perhaps this time it will sink it), the burden of proof is on the retailer, not the consumer. You can cry and shout and stomp your feet about how unfair that is to retailers but thats the cost of doing business and consumers cannot be made liable for something that is wholly within the control of the supplier (or an agent acting on their behalf) as that is specifically covered as an unfair term.

The retailer could get a courier to ask for ID (like they usually do for mobile phones) before handing it over but they dont because it would cost them extra and most parcels will arrive fine so its entirely their choice to have a more lax delivery service and be liable if anything happens to the parcel!

socrates

This has happened before:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5079220

Here is my story - despite what all the nay sayers said:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4057991

usefulmale

Pointless bickering amongst ourselves. It's now up to the OP to take it to court, seeing as they apparently have a 'solid case'.

We all know that they won't do that though.

steampowered

usefulmale wrote: »

So what did the OP say in response to your PM offering to cover any losses they may make?

Don't worry. I know you would never send that PM.

I can't give the Op a 100% guarantee that he/she would win the case. Noone can.

You don't need 100% proof to go to a civil court. Civil cases are decided on a 'balance of probabilities'.

We may have to disagree, but for the reasons explained I personally think the Op has a very good chance of winning. The judge simply has to decide whether it is more likely that the Op received the parcel or more likely that they did not receive the parcel. You might disagree and that's fine.

I think a witness statement from the Op confirming that the parcel was not received would be plenty of evidence as it is all the Op could reasonably be expected to provide, unless the seller is able to provide pretty clear and convincing evidence that the Op is lying.

The Op doesn't need a guarantee to start a small claim. It is easy (it can be done online in a few minutes on the moneyclaimonline website). It is cheap (the issue fee starts from £25 and you get that back if you win). It is low risk (costs are only awarded in a very small number of cases where one side has acted particularly badly).

And of course 90% of the time companies will settle as soon as they know you have called their bluff and a claim form hits their doormat. The risks are absolutely worth taking if someone has a half decent claim, even over quite a small amount.

Frankly I wish more people would bring small claims when they have been wronged, rather than coming up with excuses not to. It is easier than most people think!