We'd like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum... Read More »
PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: Hello Forumites! In order to help keep the Forum a useful, safe and friendly place for our users, discussions around non-MoneySaving matters are not permitted per the Forum rules. While we understand that mentioning house prices may sometimes be relevant to a user's specific MoneySaving situation, we ask that you please avoid veering into broad, general debates about the market, the economy and politics, as these can unfortunately lead to abusive or hateful behaviour. Threads that are found to have derailed into wider discussions may be removed. Users who repeatedly disregard this may have their Forum account banned. Please also avoid posting personally identifiable information, including links to your own online property listing which may reveal your address. Thank you for your understanding.
Awkward Developers
alestorm
Posts: 19 Forumite
Hi All,
I've got an bit of a query and yet again return to frankly the best source of advice there is!
My partner and I bought a new build flat back in June (well, bought the leasehold).
It's a ground floor flat, the front bedroom faces the street, and has a 1m x 1m window opening directly on to the street. The window was locked when we moved in, and it was a couple of weeks after moving in when we got the keys to this window (for unknown reasons we didn't get it right away).
We discovered that the window opens inwards, side hinged like a door. The entire pane swings inwards at about chest height. It has no restrictor, stopper or any mechanism to hold it open in place when open, so essentially it just swings aimlessly. This causes two problems. Firstly, it's a reasonably heavy window swinging in the wind, which isn't the safest thing in the world. Secondly, and perhaps more problematic is that there is absolutely no way to secure this window if it is open. Obviously most windows have some kind of latch. This doesn't, if it is open, then it is like leaving the front door open. Now we live in one of the less salubrious areas of London, and mentioned this window is directly onto the pavement. We would never leave the window open when we are out, but we can't have the window open even if we are in. There is absolutely nothing to stop anyone easily climbing, poking a head through or generally causing a nuisance (as I said, the best analogy is it's like having your front door wide open). I also suspect that if we did use it and anyone got in it would invalidate our insurance in the way that if you leave your door wide open and someone breaks in then as far as they are concerned it's your own fault because you didn't take appropriate security measures.
So, reported to service company (a sister company of the developer and only mechanism for contact). Requested a latch to be fitted. That was fine, 3 months went past boiling in the room because can't open windows, nothing. Finally after chasing service company came back saying manufacturer have advised a latch can't be fitted on that type of window, case closed. I disputed, saying it isn't case closed because it doesn't address our issue that the window isn't fit for the purpose, if a latch can't be fitted then the issue becomes a question of why a window with no security features has been fitted exclusively in the most vulnerable place in the building, and what can be done to make this window safe and secure.
They have hung onto the latch, just keep saying that it can't be fitted so there is no problem, totally missing the point. They claim it's just my opinion that it isn't fit for purpose, they think it's just fine to leave the window wide open. They further confirm that the manufacture has supplied the right window, so that proves it's all fine. I can't get them to grasp that the problem isn't the manufacturer, it's who specified a window that couldn't be secured in that location.
The odd thing is this is the only window of this type in our flat, and in the whole building. All other windows are of a completely different outward opening style with safety restrictors. I can't get an answer to this either.
I have spoken to the manufacturer. The have confirmed they are supply only on this order. They play no part in the specification or installation. They have also agreed, and are putting it in writing that they completely agree the window is not fit for purpose in the location it is. In fact they confirmed that the window we have in that one place is a discontinued model intended only for a Juliet balcony.
This is all very well, but, I have a window that we just can't use. I have confirmation from the manufacturer the window isn't fit for purpose, and while a window refit is an option, they can't do anything without an order (and nor would I expect them to, it's not their problem). The developer / service company just say there is no problem to address.
So I just feel stuck. Two of the parties involved (me and the manufacturer agree the window is incorrectly specified by the developer). The developer simply disagrees. I want the window replacing with something more appropriate. The manufacture agree that it is pretty easily do-able, just the question of cost. I would expect that because we can show the developer have specified it incorrectly, in a totally new build flat, it is their responsibility to rectify. Developer doesn't even acknowledge the complaint.
As a kind of aside but partially relevant, the developer / service company to whom we pay the service charge (same company, different name) are totally useless / incompetent / disinterested / worse. We have a list of problems as long as your arm, and while a lot of them we have managed to sort ourselves, this one is a little more difficult. Also rather worryingly we've discovered the other tenants in the block (who moved in a year or so earlier, ours was the last completed), are involved in a court action against the service company (same as people as developer, legally different company) for inflated / fabricated costs and none provision of service. They are also applying for right to manage.
All this makes it even more difficult. The developer have form for being unfair and delivering poor service. I don't know what I can do to get them to act. Does anyone have any thoughts?
I've got an bit of a query and yet again return to frankly the best source of advice there is!
My partner and I bought a new build flat back in June (well, bought the leasehold).
It's a ground floor flat, the front bedroom faces the street, and has a 1m x 1m window opening directly on to the street. The window was locked when we moved in, and it was a couple of weeks after moving in when we got the keys to this window (for unknown reasons we didn't get it right away).
We discovered that the window opens inwards, side hinged like a door. The entire pane swings inwards at about chest height. It has no restrictor, stopper or any mechanism to hold it open in place when open, so essentially it just swings aimlessly. This causes two problems. Firstly, it's a reasonably heavy window swinging in the wind, which isn't the safest thing in the world. Secondly, and perhaps more problematic is that there is absolutely no way to secure this window if it is open. Obviously most windows have some kind of latch. This doesn't, if it is open, then it is like leaving the front door open. Now we live in one of the less salubrious areas of London, and mentioned this window is directly onto the pavement. We would never leave the window open when we are out, but we can't have the window open even if we are in. There is absolutely nothing to stop anyone easily climbing, poking a head through or generally causing a nuisance (as I said, the best analogy is it's like having your front door wide open). I also suspect that if we did use it and anyone got in it would invalidate our insurance in the way that if you leave your door wide open and someone breaks in then as far as they are concerned it's your own fault because you didn't take appropriate security measures.
So, reported to service company (a sister company of the developer and only mechanism for contact). Requested a latch to be fitted. That was fine, 3 months went past boiling in the room because can't open windows, nothing. Finally after chasing service company came back saying manufacturer have advised a latch can't be fitted on that type of window, case closed. I disputed, saying it isn't case closed because it doesn't address our issue that the window isn't fit for the purpose, if a latch can't be fitted then the issue becomes a question of why a window with no security features has been fitted exclusively in the most vulnerable place in the building, and what can be done to make this window safe and secure.
They have hung onto the latch, just keep saying that it can't be fitted so there is no problem, totally missing the point. They claim it's just my opinion that it isn't fit for purpose, they think it's just fine to leave the window wide open. They further confirm that the manufacture has supplied the right window, so that proves it's all fine. I can't get them to grasp that the problem isn't the manufacturer, it's who specified a window that couldn't be secured in that location.
The odd thing is this is the only window of this type in our flat, and in the whole building. All other windows are of a completely different outward opening style with safety restrictors. I can't get an answer to this either.
I have spoken to the manufacturer. The have confirmed they are supply only on this order. They play no part in the specification or installation. They have also agreed, and are putting it in writing that they completely agree the window is not fit for purpose in the location it is. In fact they confirmed that the window we have in that one place is a discontinued model intended only for a Juliet balcony.
This is all very well, but, I have a window that we just can't use. I have confirmation from the manufacturer the window isn't fit for purpose, and while a window refit is an option, they can't do anything without an order (and nor would I expect them to, it's not their problem). The developer / service company just say there is no problem to address.
So I just feel stuck. Two of the parties involved (me and the manufacturer agree the window is incorrectly specified by the developer). The developer simply disagrees. I want the window replacing with something more appropriate. The manufacture agree that it is pretty easily do-able, just the question of cost. I would expect that because we can show the developer have specified it incorrectly, in a totally new build flat, it is their responsibility to rectify. Developer doesn't even acknowledge the complaint.
As a kind of aside but partially relevant, the developer / service company to whom we pay the service charge (same company, different name) are totally useless / incompetent / disinterested / worse. We have a list of problems as long as your arm, and while a lot of them we have managed to sort ourselves, this one is a little more difficult. Also rather worryingly we've discovered the other tenants in the block (who moved in a year or so earlier, ours was the last completed), are involved in a court action against the service company (same as people as developer, legally different company) for inflated / fabricated costs and none provision of service. They are also applying for right to manage.
All this makes it even more difficult. The developer have form for being unfair and delivering poor service. I don't know what I can do to get them to act. Does anyone have any thoughts?
0
Comments
-
As the window is right next to the pavement, I guess it opens inwards for safety reasons - to avoid you hitting somebody as you open it, and to avoid a high level obstruction over the pavement.
And being next to the pavement, I suspect the assumption is that you wouldn't open it routinely.
Were you misled by the developer about the window in some way, before you bought the flat? If not, it's hard to see why the developer would be liable for anything.
Having said that, there are many generic door/window stays/restrictors on the market. I'm sure you could find something to suit your needs.
An example of a generic restrictor:
http://www.johnlewis.com/jackloc-window-restrictor-white/p2312412660 -
It's normal that windows which open to pedestrian routes are inward opening to avoid any danger of accidents. Changing it for an outward opening window might cause issues with building control.
It's bizzare that the window manufacturer says on one hand that they don't specify anything but then go on to say your window isn't fit for purpose! either they can specify the windows or not...
If i was you i'd just get a suitable bit of hardware to fit onto the window that's there and get on with my life - the window opens and locks closed, it presumably has the required uvalue and security features to meet the building regulations, just because you want to leave it half open and secure doesn't mean it isn't fit for purposeThis is a system account and does not represent a real person. To contact the Forum Team email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com0 -
Hi,
Thanks for the responses.
Developer has said manufacturer says can't fit restrictor to this window, end of story. It's a leasehold so I need their permission.
Manufacturer say solution is to change the top panel to opening window. It's 8ft in the air and wouldn't obstruct pedestrians.
No, what I meant was developer said manufacturer spec'd these window, they are saying they did not, they just fulfilled an order. Had they been consulted they would have said the window is totally inappropriate.
I appreciate the feedback, but honestly can't see that wanting to have a window open and secure at the same time is unreasonable. If we were allowed to fit the restrictor I would of course just do it, problem solved but I can't get them to agree to that.
Were we misold? Don't know, we were shown the windows but all the other windows are a totally different style. This window, key was 'lost' until after we moved in so didn't know there was a problem.0 -
Just fit the restrictor!
Is there something in the lease that says you cannot alter the window?
Even if there is, Are they likely to come round and check? Probably not.0 -
My partner and I bought a new build flat back in June (well, bought the leasehold).
Off-plan, or did you see the property first?
If off-plan, what did the plans show? Does the property conform to the plans exactly?I can't get them to grasp that the problem isn't the manufacturer, it's who specified a window that couldn't be secured in that location.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Kinda irrelevant, really, since what they specify in the future won't make any difference to your flat.I have spoken to the manufacturer. The have confirmed they are supply only on this order. They play no part in the specification or installation. They have also agreed, and are putting it in writing that they completely agree the window is not fit for purpose in the location it is.
Such is their opinion. It's a perfectly valid opinion, but since they didn't specify it or install it, their opinion doesn't actually make much difference.The developer / service company just say there is no problem to address.
And that's a perfectly valid opinion for them to hold, too, whether you agree with it or not.So I just feel stuck. Two of the parties involved (me and the manufacturer agree the window is incorrectly specified by the developer). The developer simply disagrees.
Yup.I want the window replacing with something more appropriate. The manufacture agree that it is pretty easily do-able, just the question of cost. I would expect that because we can show the developer have specified it incorrectly, in a totally new build flat, it is their responsibility to rectify. Developer doesn't even acknowledge the complaint.
Generic solutions apart, you have two choices:
* You can continue to badger the developer to change it.
* You can just get on with replacing it.
I know which is more likely to get it changed, and it's the option that's going to involve a LOT less time, tears and blood pressure - but a bit more money. Have you got any quotes?
Assuming you take that option, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from then issuing a small claim against the developer for the cost of replacing it. You can show the window manufacturer's opinion as supporting evidence as to why it was incorrectly specified. I don't think I'd hold my breath as to your chances of winning - especially if you viewed the property before buying. If the plans showed that window in that location, then that can also go against you, but I'd expect it to be given less weight - who, after all, is an expert on window specifications? Not you...
I think it would have been helpful to have discovered that before buying the flat.As a kind of aside but partially relevant, the developer / service company to whom we pay the service charge (same company, different name) are totally useless / incompetent / disinterested / worse. We have a list of problems as long as your arm, and while a lot of them we have managed to sort ourselves, this one is a little more difficult. Also rather worryingly we've discovered the other tenants in the block (who moved in a year or so earlier, ours was the last completed), are involved in a court action against the service company (same as people as developer, legally different company) for inflated / fabricated costs and none provision of service. They are also applying for right to manage.
All this makes it even more difficult. The developer have form for being unfair and delivering poor service. I don't know what I can do to get them to act. Does anyone have any thoughts?0 -
It's a leasehold so I need their permission.
What does the lease actually say?
If the lease says you need the freeholder's permission to do something (e.g. fit a window stay), the law says they must not unreasonably withhold permission.
So in your position, I would tell the freeholder that they are unreasonably withholding permission.
However, the freeholder can charge you an admin fee for granting the permission.0 -
I appreciate the feedback, but honestly can't see that wanting to have a window open and secure at the same time is unreasonable.
.
It's not unreasonable, but that still doesn't mean the window is not fit for purpose.This is a system account and does not represent a real person. To contact the Forum Team email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com0 -
Does the flat have to have 1 fire escape window fitted? This sounds like it is one to me, that will be why you are not supposed to fit any kind of restraint to it.Mr Generous - Landlord for more than 10 years. Generous? - Possibly but sarcastic more likely.0
This discussion has been closed.
Confirm your email address to Create Threads and Reply
Categories
- All Categories
- 350.1K Banking & Borrowing
- 252.7K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 453.1K Spending & Discounts
- 243K Work, Benefits & Business
- 597.4K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 176.5K Life & Family
- 256K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 16.1K Discuss & Feedback
- 37.6K Read-Only Boards