PCN- free car parking- Wright and Hassall, ZZPS, Civil Enforcement Ltd

Madge1919

Hi All,

I have read the newbies post, thread regarding CEL, ZZPS and Wright Hassall and also small claims threads and I would like to ask you advice regarding my situation to ensure I am on the right track please.



• I received a PCN from CEL for £60 to say I had parked on the land from 17:11:34 to 17:23:08 as it is authorised vehicles only in accordance with the parking terms and conditions clearly stated on the signage.

I appealed to CEL as discussed on their letter as below as I honestly did not see any signs, was not instructed by the gym to input my car reg when I got in to the facility and I felt the charge for a 1.5 minute overstay after the 10 minute grace period was disproportionate (thinking I shouldn’t have now possibly);

Dear Sir or Madam,

PCN no:

Vehicle Reg:

You issued me with a parking charge notice on 13/10/2015 and I received the notice on 12/11/2015 and it has taken you over 28 days to notify me of this parking notice. I believe it was unfairly issued and I reject the charge and I will not be paying your demand for payment for the following reasons:

The signage in the car park was minimal and small and I was not aware of any new parking rules on this piece of land because of this.

I used the land to take a short tour around the Gym facility on the land and the gym did not state any rules to use the land. Therefore I was using the land for the facilities it is there for but did not see the signs due to my previous point.

Since speaking to ‘One Gym- Redcar’ today, they advised that I am allowed 10 minutes free parking when using the facility. You letter states I parked on the land for 11 minutes.

In my case, the £60 you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner. As I parked on the land for 11 minutes I feel that your charge of £60 is excessive for 1 minute overstay and is disproportionate.

I am a law abiding citizen and I have not received a notice in regards to your land previously and I am now aware of your parking instructions.

If you choose to pursue me please be aware that I will not enter into any correspondence and this will be the only email/ letter you will receive from me until you answer the specific points raised in my letter.

Yours Faithfully



• I received a letter back to say that my appeal had been unsuccessful and it did not address any of my specific points. It instead sent out a pre-printed sheet with every reason an appeal can be rejected on 20/11/2015. Stupidly I looked in to the Popla appeals and felt as this was now over two months since the PCN was issued I had no right to appeal as was past 28 days.

• 11/04/16- Letter from CEL to ask for £140 and to advise that they are seeking full costs of the application together with all the legal fees in dealing with this matter

• 03/10/16- ZZPS Debt collection notice for £200- 14 days to pay

• 17/10/16- Letter from ZZPS Notice of intended legal collections- £200 and advising will take to Wright and Hassall

• 07/11/16- Letter from Wright Hassall- £236- 14 days to pay- Advising failure to repay the PCN ‘may result in us recommending to our client that we pass this matter to our litigation department. This may mean they will look to obtain a CCJ…. The ‘parking event’ states- ‘parking on private property in breach of the prominently displayed terms and conditions’.



That brings me to today and a good few hours of reading.

10/11/16- I have called the gym again as I still have no clue who the landowner is. They don’t know and can only give me Creative Parking Solutions. I called Creative Parking Solutions twice and they advise they were unable give me the name of the landowner and put me through to the automated line for CEL for Appeals. I have called the Local Authority and they also do not know the name of the land owner and could only give me creative parking solutions



I have some questions after reading the threads please:

• I hoped to write to the landowner directly but I have got nowhere again…..do you think I should write to the gym to complain of this…however they do not know who owns the land and this is why I have not done this in the past? (I also called the LA and the other trader on the site and they all gave me the same answer?).

• Should I contact the SRA at this stage to complain about Wright and Hassall but I am not sure on what grounds at th moment. I do feel they are pressing me for a debt that they may not have any information about as I have none at all!

• Should I write to Wright and Hassall at this stage? I feel the next letter will be the Letter Before County Court Action and from reading some of the threads. The letter they have sent has not given me any details to offer any formal challenge. I am worried as my appeal letter shows that I was there however how can the ANPR show I was parked for the 1.5 minute over the grace period as I was driving looking for a space as I know I was in the gym under ten minutes.

• Or do I wait for the LBCCA and then challenge them on this next.



Thank you so much for any support you can give. I have spent hours reading the forum and just want to be on the right track to appeal against something I believe is not right.
:eek:

Many thanks








North Yorkshire County Council.

Carthesis

So there was no windscreen ticket on your car?

And the postal Notice to Keeper - i.e. the FIRST notification of any kind of charge you got - didn't land on your doorstep until 30 days after the alleged infraction?

If *BOTH* the above are true, then the answer is you need to write to all parties and inform them that the principal client (CEL) has failed to correctly apply the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA(2012), and as such have forfeited their right to the provisions of the same with regard to transfer of liability to the Registered Keeper, and can therefore only pursue the driver, whom you are under no onus to name.

Madge1919

Hi Carthesis,

Thabk you for your prompt reply. I had no notice on my windscreen and the PCN landed through my door exactly 30 days after the event. I feel my appeal letter lets me down I as say I am there , therefore saying I am the registered keeper and driver? So coulf I still write to all parties to say this?

Many thanks

Carthesis

Ah. Quite right. I hadn't read your appeal letter in detail so hadn't spotted that.

This is why the first piece of advice is NEVER EVER TO NAME THE DRIVER.

You can still write to them and make the same points and just hope they don't spot that from your letter, and instead continue to rely on Elliot -v- Loake, which will be thrown out because it isn't relevant. But it could stuff you if they spot it.

You'd be better off waiting for the LBCCC and then defending this as the driver and on the basis of poor signage etc.

You should also point out to them that by increasing the costs as they have - as in adding on the costs of "recovery" is strictly prohibited, and as such you will be making a complaint to the SRA and the appropriate agencies which regulate debt collectors, as well as the DVLA and the BPA.

** EDIT **

Also point out to them that "threatening to obtain a CCJ" will land them in hot water by the SRA. They can only get a CCJ if they take you to small claims, you lose, the judge orders you to repay, you refuse, and then and ONLY THEN can they apply for a CCJ.

pappa_golf

creative parking solutions , where have I heard that name before

ih yes,,,,,,,,,,,,,

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06854331/officers

linked to

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09767353/officers

and this hapily links back to

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05645677


you are being given the run around by the gym owner , who has probably got it wrong CEL or creative do NOT own car parks , and seconly the contract has been signed with a different company

however you have put your foot in it by admirtting to being the driver

Carthesis

Indeed.

Had you not admitted to being the driver, this would have been dealt with 12 months ago with a POPLA appeal stating they haven't met the mandatory timescales, thus keeper liability isn't open to them.

Only thing you can do now is bat them off with letters to them warning them you're going to complain to various people, and registering complaints with the SRA etc. They've got 5 years to bring an LBCCC, so you could be in for a wait i'm afraid.

Your other option is to have a nose around the internet and discover who the CEO of the group that owns the gym is - it's trivial to find via Google. Then contact them directly and insist they intervene. Then start making noise about it if they don't - i'm sure the local press would love that.

There's also a BMPA campaign to contact your MP and the PM about this issue - I suggest you get involved via that route too.

Carthesis

I must admit i'm not 100% up on the ins-and-outs of what they are allowed to claim back.

My understanding is that the maximum they are allowed is the original, unreduced rate for the parking infraction, + £50 maximum court costs for going through MCOL etc.

I'm fairly certain they are not allowed to lump on costs for debt recovery etc.

I've just has a nose round the forum hoping to find the information somewhere - as much for my own benefit as for yours - but i've been unable to locate anything definitive that you could use as the basis for a letter back to them in the 15 minutes or so I spent looking round.

Therefore I advise you to have a dig around yourself using the forum search tools and some useful search terms and see what you can dig up.

In the meantime one of the forum "big hitters" might be along to shed some light where my own dim candle sadly cannot currently reach.

pappa_golf

a random CEL notice , gets wierd as the say ce-services as well , note the "aditional costs" after 28 days ?? is that legal?

Madge1919

Thabk you for yoir replies. Yes in hindsight my appeal to CEL has cost me.

I will do the search for the CEO and contact them as can't get anywhere seeking out the landowner.

I will write to the SRA basing my letter on taking 30 days to notify, threatening CCJs, not providing information about the claim? Will the SRA website give me guidance on this.

Do we think this is probably a court appearance with no win but to pay less than the £236 fingers crossed with some reading about costs.

I know i will have my defence to submit but this may only be what I have already submitted as appeal due to admitting the driver.

Many thanks



Other th

Madge1919

I have taken a photo of the sign and it says permit holders only. If you park without a valid permit you agree to pay £100. These terms apply at all times. Additional costs / recovery charge will be incurred if payment is not recieved within 28 days. The signs are very small especially on a dark evening in late october at 5pm.

They give no direction on how to claim for a permit or any grace periods to find a parking spot and then get a permit or in this case put details in to a i pad.

Coupon-mad

Do we think this is probably a court appearance with no win but to pay less than the £236 fingers crossed with some reading about costs.

I would not say this is LIKELY to result in 'no win' for you, if the signs were unreadable. Many, many cases are won on illegible signs, it's not all about no keeper liability. That argument was only possible since 2012 and cases were won before that too, so it's certainly not the only winning point in parking cases.

Look, plenty of cases are won on dodgy signs, here are just a few:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/link-parking-lose-in-court-poor-signage.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/ukcps-claim-dismissed-judge-rules.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/ukcps-claim-dismissed-judge-rules_14.html

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/parkingeye-lose-in-court-bad-signage.html

Also we have never seen a defended CEL claim on this forum actually proceed as far as a hearing. We had a few to defend back in February - actual claims - and they all just got stayed when CEL didn't proceed. Like these two, defended then bit the dust:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5457888

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5430374

Worst case scenario as you say, the charge was £100, the court fees £50. that's the approx sum a losing defendant should typically pay but I would not be too despondent. Very defendable. Mr Schwartz doesn't seem to like forum defences.