Beneficiary to intestate estate?

Yorkshireman99

Unless all the claimants can be identified the amount of the estate due to each one cannot be determined. That is what a professional heir hunter will do. Without the knowledge and expertise that a professional heir hunter has it will be next to impossible to do. That is why trying to DIY it is not advisable nor is it likely to be cost effective. Your belief that amateurs can do the job is simply pie in the sky just like your beilief that amateurs can easily save money by not using solicitors. In some cases this may be possible but in many it is not. Anyone who has tried to compile a complex family tree will tell you it is difficult, time consuming and costly. In the case of an intestate estate a lot of research will have been done and failed to establish the facts before a professional heir hunter gets anywhere near it. In fact many intestate estates are researched long before the appear on the BV list.

getmore4less

As this death has only been 2 months I suspect this has not been administered by BVD(a grant search would confirm) and being listed also suggest there was no heir hunter involved before the referral as that could have stopped any referral if they had found and signed up a relative.

Referrals to BVD can happen very quickly and with very little/no research if those dealing with the death have no idea of any living relatives.

Sometimes heir hunters will get tipped off or they get a head start by finding a potential estate through other sources like newspapers.

Initially administrators only needs to be happy with the top level of distribution.
In this case the brother/sisters of the Dad that will determine the minimum distribution to each tree below that.
The administrator can then leave the beneficiaries in each tree to provide their own evidence.

It is up to the OP to decide what route they want to take but they need to do that form an informed position, which is not as you claim, have provided no evidence to support and is contrary to the government departments own guidelines.

Yorkshireman99

getmore4less wrote: »

As this death has only been 2 months I suspect this has not been administered by BVD(a grant search would confirm) and being listed also suggest there was no heir hunter involved before the referral as that could have stopped any referral if they had found and signed up a relative.

Referrals to BVD can happen very quickly and with very little/no research if those dealing with the death have no idea of any living relatives.

Sometimes heir hunters will get tipped off or they get a head start by finding a potential estate through other sources like newspapers.

Initially administrators only needs to be happy with the top level of distribution.
In this case the brother/sisters of the Dad that will determine the minimum distribution to each tree below that.
The administrator can then leave the beneficiaries in each tree to provide their own evidence.

It is up to the OP to decide what route they want to take but they need to do that form an informed position, which is not as you claim, have provided no evidence to support and is contrary to the government departments own guidelines.

Your simplistic view just does not help much and in fact is downright misleading.. If it was that simple heir hunters would not stay in business. Often cases involve relatives such as the OP who have never heard of. Tracing those entitled is a complex and time consuming job. Your implication that it is an easy DIY job is, to be quite frank, complete rubbish. Have you ever tried to trace distant relatives and obtained all the certificates to substantiate the links? Have you ever dealt with a BV claim? From personal experience I can tell you that it is not the simple task you make it out to be. and I speak from more than thirty years of experience in genealogy. No amateur can compete with the professional heir hunters who have far more resources readily available to them. The OP needs to remember that an estate that is on the BV list will have already been investigated for the easy to find links long before it gets to that stage.

Tuesday_Tenor

getmore4less wrote: »

that is not what is said on the link.
I suspect you have not even read it.

the claim just needs to have your lineage

If you believe you are entitled to claim an estate which has been dealt with by BVD, please send a family tree which shows how you are related to the person who has died, and include the dates of birth, marriage and death of all those on the tree

no requirement to provide a full set for all beneficiaries and the heir hunters rely on this to start claims with the first they get to sign up.

if you really believe a claim needs a full tree you need to provide some evidence to support that claim as a government site says different.

if a claimant decides to administer the responsibility then passes to that administrator to meet the statutory requirements of identification of the beneficiaries as with any other estate.

Admission of claims

BVD will deal with, and admit, the first fully documented claim they receive which is supported by sufficient evidence.

Once a claim is accepted BVD do not need claims from other relatives, as their claim is protected by law and should be made direct to the successful claimant or their representative, as it is their legal duty to deal with the estate appropriately


the known beneficiaries might consider accepting the hunter fees to get the full tree but administer or do some of it.

no one says it is easy but to get to the level needed to do a distribution, holding onto the unknown branches is possible.

that's effectively what a BVD administered estate is with them holding all the assets waiting for a claim.

Thanks GMFL , that's helpful

I do understand we are talking about 2 different levels of claim/identification here

(1) The OPs claim on the estate, where one just has to prove the lineage of one's own branch of the family.

(2) The complete picture, where the administrator will have to identify all all the potential beneficiaries before the full and final distribution can take place. I had not taken account of the fact that as as each 'branch' inherits an equal share, then the inheritance can be 'held' for the branches which have not yet been identified in detail AND proven their entitlement. This sounds like a potential nightmare: any solicitor acting as administrator, and charging for their time, would presumably have to hold on to sufficient funds for what might be work stretching over 12 years? So they'd probably employ a more specialist heir-hunter firm to get on with this? And the costs would come out of the estate anyway? Is that how it would work?

I thought OP was also thinking of POSSIBLY applying to administer the estate ( incl. clearing the house etc): in which case they could have the job potentially hanging over them for 12 years if they're not able to fully identify all the beneficiaries. What lay executor would want this? I guess I was aiming to highlight the amount of work that would be needed to COMPLETE the task of administration. But I agree I'm doing it from a position of being only slightly better-informed that the OP herself, so thanks for educating us!

Tuesday_Tenor

getmore4less wrote: »

The administrator can then leave the beneficiaries in each tree to provide their own evidence.

How would the administrator know that the tree submitted for each branch was complete? How would they know that family rifts/estrangement hasn't caused someone to be deliberately or inadvertently 'left off' ? Surely the Administrator is responsible for identifying ALL the beneficiaries in that branch, so would have to do research to confirm it was correct? Or would the claimant be swearing that 'these are ALL the children of 'X' , so taking on the responsibility for correct identification?

Not saying this is an issue in the OPs situation, just thinking how difficult it could be in some cases.

Not trying to be awkward, just trying to understand how it would all work (which is hopefully helpful to OP too!)

Yorkshireman99

Tuesday_Tenor wrote: »

How would the administrator know that the tree submitted for each branch was complete? How would they know that family rifts/estrangement hasn't caused someone to be deliberately or inadvertently 'left off' ? Surely the Administrator is responsible for identifying ALL the beneficiaries in that branch, so would have to do research to confirm it was correct? Or would the claimant be swearing that 'these are ALL the children of 'X' , so taking on the responsibility for correct identification?

Not saying this is an issue in the OPs situation, just thinking how difficult it could be in some cases.

Not trying to be awkward, just trying to understand how it would all work (which is hopefully helpful to OP too!)

Exactly! In order to extablish how many claimants there are to an estate the full picture is needed. No payout can happen until that is done. The very fact that an estate has ended up in BV means that the possibilities are complex. Heir hunters don't only work on BV estates as executors will often use them if there are no obvious claimants.

getmore4less

Tuesday_Tenor wrote: »

How would the administrator know that the tree submitted for each branch was complete? How would they know that family rifts/estrangement hasn't caused someone to be deliberately or inadvertently 'left off' ? Surely the Administrator is responsible for identifying ALL the beneficiaries in that branch, so would have to do research to confirm it was correct? Or would the claimant be swearing that 'these are ALL the children of 'X' , so taking on the responsibility for correct identification?

Not saying this is an issue in the OPs situation, just thinking how difficult it could be in some cases.

Not trying to be awkward, just trying to understand how it would all work (which is hopefully helpful to OP too!)

Never said it would be easy, a beneficiary administrator needs to satisfy themselves the claim is valid, eg. for their own branch they don't need birth certificates of the siblings if they are happy they know how many their are.

This is never an all or nothing administrators can employ the relevant experts on an as needed basis.

getmore4less

Yorkshireman99 wrote:

...
The OP needs to remember that an estate that is on the BV list will have already been investigated for the easy to find links long before it gets to that stage.

Yorkshireman99 wrote: »

Exactly! In order to extablish how many claimants there are to an estate the full picture is needed. No payout can happen until that is done. The very fact that an estate has ended up in BV means that the possibilities are complex. Heir hunters don't only work on BV estates as executors will often use them if there are no obvious claimants.

You keep saying this with nothing to back it up.

I think you need to educate everyone who is doing all this extensive research before estates hits the list?

BVD say they will try to add the estate to the list within 5 days of referral who is doing the research before referral?

I suspect most referrers do very little or nothing.

how much research do councils, hospitals and care homes do before referring?
They are probably quite a significant contributor to unclaimed estates.

For this case unlikely BVD have done anything they want the relatives or heir hunters to kick in and do the job to find at least one beneficiary.

they say this on their own web pages to any referrer.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/refer-a-deceased-persons-estate-to-the-treasury-solicitor


If a valid Will or relatives are not traced, BVD will contact you to collect anything held on behalf of the estate in order to start the administration – this can take a few months

Yorkshireman99

It seems if there is not a web link you think that something does not exist. You also seem incapable of comprehending any argument that does not come from a web link. There is vast amount of information on the web.
"Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkshireman99
...
The OP needs to remember that an estate that is on the BV list will have already been investigated for the easy to find links long before it gets to that stage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkshireman99
Exactly! In order to extablish how many claimants there are to an estate the full picture is needed. No payout can happen until that is done. The very fact that an estate has ended up in BV means that the possibilities are complex. Heir hunters don't only work on BV estates as executors will often use them if there are no obvious claimants.

You keep saying this with nothing to back it up."
Exactly what do you not understand about what I said? Estates only get referred to the BVD when attempts to find a valid will or any blood relatives that might inherit. You migh5t like to read the full BVD notes particularly this one.
"Overview

This guidance is for information only, is not intended to be legal advice or to cover every situation that may arise when claiming an estate. If required you should seek your own independent legal advice from a qualified solicitor, your local law centre or Citizens Advice Bureau.
The Bona Vacantia division (BVD) of the Government Legal Department administers the estates of people who die without blood relatives and without leaving a Will"


It should be axiomatic that estates only get referred to the BVD as a last resort. All sorts of people and organizations refer estates and there is no one size fits all story behind those referrals. Your suggestion that most referrers do little or no research is pure supposition on your part.

barbiedoll

I've got even more questions now!

We've been contacted by yet another heir hunter company, this one claims to be acting on behalf of some of the beneficiaries already (11 and counting! :eek:) and "would be delighted" to act on our behalf too.

But....if they're already acting on behalf of the estate and they already know about my brother and I, why do we need to employ their services at all? They'll be getting a cut from those that have signed up and as they know of our existence, and of our right to inherit, will we still get our share? I assume we'll have to provide evidence of our claim (birth certs, proof of I.D. etc) but I don't see why we have to pay them too?

We have been searching the family tree via Ancestry (my brother is already a subscriber after researching the other side of our family) and there are probably going to be a lot of beneficiaries, our grandmother was from a family of 10 children. We're easily able to provide a tree proving our relationship with the deceased, although the heir hunters clearly already have this information.

So I guess my big question is...what to do next?