Endless appeal with IAS

midimaomao

It was too late when I found this website and read through the whole thread including the template.....

What happened was that I appealed to the PCM (Parking Control Management) which was rejected and I had submitted another appeal to IAS which is likely to be rejected again accordingly to what I have read here.....

I only have one question as to whether to pay the £100 charge now or I still have a chance to win even this is sent to county court later.

My argument is that I never accepted the terms therefore the contract was never formed because as soon as I understood the terms I moved my car to the designated area within 1 minute.- This certainly cannot be considered as an acceptance of the contact.

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I realised that I have done a few things incorrectly earlier therefore would like to seek some advice before I replied to IAS by the deadline of this Friday:

Please see the below my appeal:
"To whom it may concern,

Re PCN number: PMxxxxxxx

On 08/10/2016, I visited Staycity Aparthotels London Heathrow as a first-time visitor to drop off a guest with approximately 8-10 big boxes and subsequently received a parking charge notice of £100 for stopping in front of the entrance for less than 1 minute when I had to read the signs and consider the terms, after which I moved my vehicle to the drop-off bay immediately without any obstruction nor loss to anyone.

As the first-time visitor to this hotel, it is unlawful to expect me to read the signs from the road when I am driving and I should be allowed time to consider the terms.!

1) The area is extremely misleading being right in front of the hotel reception, especially when the guest had 8-10 boxes and would like to ask for a trolley from the reception. The signs are not adequately positioned as it was 20 metres away in front, so I had to get out of the car to read the words.

2)Being a foreigner, I spent 1 minute to understand the English words and moved the vehicle to the drop-off area immediately within 1-2 minutes maximum.

3) The dropoff area is marked opposite the road which is not easy to be found as the first-time visitor, however I moved to the bay immediately when I understood the sign and their terms.

It is extremely unreasonable to issue a parking ticket for £100 because I stopped in a misleading area for 1 minute in order to read the sign 20 metres away in front that caused no obstruction nor loss to anyone. I also feel discriminated because I may have needed 30 seconds longer to understand the terms fully.!It is also unlawful for Parking Control Management LTD to accuse me of agreeing to pay this amount because I never accepted the terms therefore the contract was never formed. Having read the signs and their terms, I decided to move to the drop-off bay immediately and spent 10 minutes to unload the boxes. I cannot understand why this company is being ignorant and unreasonable and expects every first-time visitor to understand their terms which are over 100 English words by a glance while driving.!

I therefore request this PCN to be cancelled because I firmly believe that I should be allowed to read the sign and understand the terms, after which I moved the vehicle immediately. I do not have evidence but trust this company would have photos after I moved to the bay opposite the road and spent 10 minutes unloading approximately 8-10 big boxes, NOT in the restricted area where they took other pictures in order to catch the customers.!

Thank you very much for your time."

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Please see the below PCM's reply:
"The appellant was the driver.
The appellant was the keeper.
ANPR/CCTV was used.
The Notice to Keeper was sent on 11/10/2016.
A response was recieved from the Notice to Keeper.
The ticket was issued on 08/10/2016.
The Notice to Keeper (ANPR) was sent in accordance with PoFA.
The charge is based in Contract.

Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd has been contracted to monitor & enforce a parking enforcement scheme in this area
since 10th November 2009. This site is private land and is managed and operated by Parking Control Management. The
Parking Charge Notice (PCN) has been issued in accordance with this parking management scheme. The signage in the area
is clear and informs motorists of the terms agreed to by parking. By parking in this manner, the driver agrees to pay the charge
stated.
On the 08/10/2016 VRM XXXXXX was observed to be parked in breach of the advertised terms and conditions. Parking
Attendant recorded that the vehicle was parked outside of a marked bay. The Parking Charge Notice was issued via post on
the 11/10/2016
Currently, the station is being developed as part of the London Crossrail upgrades; therefore the roadway is closed to station
traffic with no drop off facilities available. This is signposted at the entrance to the roadway (see site information below).
Limited parking is available within the bays but stopping/ waiting or drop & collection outside of marked bays is not permitted
at any time.
The area has numerous signs including entrance signs – indicating no stopping or waiting and showing icons which are easily
interpreted at a glance – for example the crossed out capital P. the no parking areas are also painted easily recognisable
markings – yellow lines/ hatchings etc.
Any driver is of course, entitled to a reasonable amount of time to consider the terms. It is agreed that the signs cannot be
read from the vehicle, nor are they intended to be. The driver is entitled to park and consider the terms before making the
decision to park. The operator would expect any driver parking on private land, to park in bays where they are present.
However, the driver made no attempt to do this. The signs at the entrance make it clear this is private land and restrictions
apply. The photographs make it clear the driver made no attempt to consider the terms; therefore they are deemed to have
notice of them."

To pay for this charge of £100 is not the end of the world, and I certainly can learn a good lesson from this. I only feel angry for this company to catch people like this by having such a misleading area and taking photos, therefore would like to seek some professional advice here and seek some justice from the country court if I can. Of course, if it is likely that I will loose again in the court I will go ahead to pay this £100 as I do not want to receive those letters from the debt collectors though they do not any have any legal power- just not worth to be depressed because of those unpleasant letters.

Thank you very much for your help and time.

midimaomao

Btw, the response from this company PCM is very quick- therefore I have every reason to believe they will take me to court if I refuse to pay the charge and they will keep increasing it from £60 (with discount before appeal) to £300 as I have seen on other forums.

Ralph-y

if you have fully read the threads then you should know that we do not recommend appealing to 'Skippy' at the 'kangaroo court' of the IAS

you will NOT win .... unless you come up on the IAS monthly lottery that allows some wins .... to make it look good :eek:

you would be FAR better off complaing to the hotel !

"I refuse to pay the charge and they will keep increasing it from £60 (with discount before appeal) to £300 as I have seen on other forums."

which forums ? this is NOT allowed !

you are falling into the trap of believing the lies that they spurt out .....


"therefore would like to seek some professional advice here and seek some justice from the country court "

you will get no professional advice here .......... we are all just forum members

if you do get professional advice ..... it will probably be lacking in depth compared to the advice that you will get off this forum

so please listen

and

good luck

Ralph:cool:

midimaomao

Many thanks for your reply.

I only found this forum after I appealed therefore just would like to give it a try really.... Everyone knows the result though.....

Btw, the hotel also replied- not helpful at all

"Thank you very much for your email.

Unfortunately we don't have no control over the company which operates on behalf of the national rail and high point village owners who own this private road.

We do our best to ensure there is enough signage everywhere to let our guests know what's going on, however if people don't read signs and by mistake park up this PCN company gives tickets straight away.

I wish I could do something all I would suggest is that please appeal against the ticket you received you must have the procedure on the back of it with the same information you sent to me and I hope they will be take it off.

I am very sorry for not being able to help."

Coupon-mad

I only have one question as to whether to pay the £100 charge now

No.

I still have a chance to win even this is sent to county court later.

Absolutely, yes. PCM cases are certainly won in court. On pepipoo forum, read this one from Marky123 who won today and got awarded HIS costs!

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=105175

and on that thread, another posters 'tracytracy' says she also won last week v PCM and was awarded over £100 costs.

I also know of another one who won last month and was awarded costs against PCM.

And bargepole who posts on here beat PCM:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/pcm-uk-signage-does-not-create-contract.html

Even a person who loses would not pay £300! Typically about £175, that's all, if you lose, no CCJ, no trouble, no effect on your credit rating.

My argument is that I never accepted the terms therefore the contract was never formed because as soon as I understood the terms I moved my car to the designated area within 1 minute.- This certainly cannot be considered as an acceptance of the contact.

We agree with you! This is part of your defence.

As you have already appealed to IAS you may as well complete that appeal and if you lose (which you probably will) just ignore PCM! Come back if you get a court claim or solicitor's letter after this stage, if you do lose. Don't pay.

Do you mean you have ALREADY sent that appeal or that you are going to send it? If you have not sent it yet, we can help you improve it to give you a chance.

Do not say things like 'I have no evidence'! And don't say 'one minute' in one please then '1 - 2 minutes' in another place.

midimaomao

Thank you very much for your detailed reply....

Honestly, I could not remember exactly how it happened and how quickly I moved the car...but I was very positive that I moved it within 2 minutes max.

Having reviewed a few threads on the forum, I definitely believe that I will get more professional advice here therefore have not yet replied to IAS.

My proposed reply is:
"I never accepted the terms therefore the contract was never formed. As soon as I understood the terms I moved my car to the drop-off area within 1-2 minutes and unloaded all the boxes in the designated area.- This certainly cannot be considered as an acceptance of the contact.

The reason why I stopped in the restricted area was because it was right in front of the hotel reception which is extremely misleading. I was having approximately 8-10 big boxes to unload on the day, therefore stopped in the nearest point initially for her to ask for a trolley from the reception but moved immediately.

The reason why I did not detail everything yin my initial appeal to PCM was because I was trying to explain to PCM that I only stopped for 1-2 minutes maximum and did not cause any obstruction nor loss to anyone. English is not my first language and I did not have enough knowledge as I even mentioned "fine" in my initial appeal to PCM while it is actually a "charge" due to breach of contract. However, I never agreed to accept the terms by moving the vehicle immediately and unloading all the boxes in the designated area therefore the contract was never formed."


Thank you very much for your help and time.- You answered all my questions and I will certainly go with your advice. I really enjoy learning about the knowledge of law- even I lose in the court, I will be happy to pay £175 for a lesson.

Coupon-mad

Good.

Now let's get this IAS appeal stronger. DO NOT SEND THIS YET.

They will want evidence. So:

- pick out this bit that PCM stated and point out that it contradicts what they are trying to argue. On the one hand they are saying you WERE allowed a reasonable amount of time to read the signs, but on the other hand they are saying that you were not...so ask IAS, which is it?

Any driver is of course, entitled to a reasonable amount of time to consider the terms. It is agreed that the signs cannot be read from the vehicle, nor are they intended to be. The driver is entitled to park and consider the terms before making the decision to park.

- where you say to IAS 'English is not my first language' attach a copy of proof for the IAS to see you are telling the truth (e.g. your passport if you have one from another Country). Where you say the signs had lots of words and was 20 metres away, can you prove that with a photo? Even one of PCM's own photos?

Can you show us that sign? Did PCM show a picture or two of the sign and area? let's see this:

''Currently, the station is being developed as part of the London Crossrail upgrades; therefore the roadway is closed to station traffic with no drop off facilities available. This is signposted at the entrance to the roadway (see site information below).''

If you can, please take a screenshot of the sign evidence PCM supplied and save it and upload it to 'tinypic' or Dropbox.

Then show us the URL for the link but change http to 'hxxp'.

midimaomao

Many thanks for your prompt reply.

pick out this bit that PCM stated and point out that it contradicts what they are trying to argue. On the one hand they are saying you WERE allowed a reasonable amount of time to read the signs, but on the other hand they are saying that you were not...so ask IAS, which is it?

- I mentioned this because I read from another thread that IAS replied to him that the drive is not expected to read the signs on the road and is allowed to have time to read and consider the terms.

Any driver is of course, entitled to a reasonable amount of time to consider the terms. It is agreed that the signs cannot be read from the vehicle, nor are they intended to be. The driver is entitled to park and consider the terms before making the decision to park.
”- where you say to IAS 'English is not my first language' attach a copy of proof for the IAS to see you are telling the truth (e.g. your passport if you have one from another Country). Where you say the signs had lots of words and was 20 metres away, can you prove that with a photo? Even one of PCM's own photos?

- Yes, I do have my Chinese passport.
- OK, maybe 10 metres aways, but I was not able to read all those word without getting out of the car.

”If you can, please take a screenshot of the sign evidence PCM supplied and save it and upload it to 'tinypic' or Dropbox.

Then show us the URL for the link but change http to 'hxxp'.

- The following errors occurred with your submission:
"Sorry as a new user you are not allowed to post with links. This is done to stop spammers clogging up the site. " - I will drop you a quick message with the link maybe?-just tried but I was not allowed to send u a private message neither....


Thank you very much for your help and time.

midimaomao

dropbox.com/sh/548vpe2ay5qgfio/AAD3M2Tnyj6gHFOpqgURV5_Qa?dl=0

midimaomao

The front part should be hxxps://

fisherjim

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/548vpe2ay5qgfio/AAD3M2Tnyj6gHFOpqgURV5_Qa?dl=0

This site has been discussed on here before, I remember from those photos, the ppc must be rubbing their hands with glee what a confusing mess.