Problem with an illegible lease

martindow

I'm wondering if the problem could be a rather faded lease that has been badly photocopied. Is it possible the seller's solicitor has something that is readable but the copy your solicitor has received is illegible?

If so, a bit of fiddling with the settings on the copier may produce something that can be read.

JonClay

Unfortunately not, Martin. The vendor's solicitor says that the copy that they have is the same.

There MUST (hopefully) be a more legible copy somewhere. Whilst the flat is from around 1900, the lease is from 1984 so surely an original must still exist? Minefield!!!

[Deleted User]

Yes, I'd be asking for a more readable copy if this is even slightly possible. Even a few more words will help give clues as to what is missing, together with the other ideas mentioned already.

A magnifying glass (seriously) could help also.

I've also seen these references.., depending on how much other ideas cost, perhaps these could be worth investigating

http://siarchives.si.edu/services/forums/collections-care-guidelines-resources/help-making-documents-more-legible

https://forums.adobe.com/thread/1276308

I wonder (from these links) if a combination of getting as good a copy of the original as you can and a photoshop expert working on it will help.

JonClay

The problem is that the text has shifted and starts at the centre of the page due to the terrible photocopying. So, the first word is roughly starting at the centre of the page and the sentences trail off half way through. Unfortunately it's not a case of the text size or the text being smudged etc. - it's more of a problem that half the words just aren't there

Irratus_Rusticus

JonClay wrote: »

The problem is that the text has shifted and starts at the centre of the page due to the terrible photocopying. So, the first word is roughly starting at the centre of the page and the sentences trail off half way through. Unfortunately it's not a case of the text size or the text being smudged etc. - it's more of a problem that half the words just aren't there

And your solicitor doesn't mind this?

As for 1900 property, probably a freehold title only until conversion into leasehold flats so there will not be older leases - and even if they existed they wouldn't help anyway. But suggests to me you may have a small freehold - one property - with a couple of flats. Makes research easier.

Forgot to mention above that just using other flat's lease won't work because the critical part (well, it's all critical...) of a lease is the schedule that describes in detail with reference to a plan the demised "Said" flat and any parking space or garage, bin stores etc. You are not planning to live in the neighbour's flat!

The lease is your only contractual document that describes that you have the legal lease to X flat in X freehold. Please understand that the lease is all you are buying. Not the flat.

Recently read of a bunch of lessees who discovered they can't sell their flats because they were originally issued the wrong leases. They all hold each others' leases!

The lease is not an interchangeable document.

Mind you, once when helping lessees go to tribunal (tribunals require copies of leases) one flat discovered - years into its existence - that the nicely bound copy of their lease was one central page shy. Checking all the other leases I could see the page was identical in all leases and didn't contain any adaptable clauses. The page number was the same. The clauses were numbered in sequence etc.

As the page-shy lessee knew they did not have any variation post-original, they could use a copy of the missing page. The fact that the missing page contained significant legal covenants binding on the lessee had somehow skipped a row of conveyancing solicitors' eyes that the page numbers in the lease were not sequential. I didn't have to buy another copy off the LR.

Maybe they don't really read them?

bouicca21

If it is a conversion then there is a good chance that the leases aren't similar because the flats themselves aren't similar. In my case it was a purpose built block and all the flats were identical, the one thing that was different about mine was that being ground floor part of the garden was demised to it, and that bit was actually legible.

Do you need a mortgage and if so what is the ltv? If you need a sizeable mortgage it is unlikely that anything you can do will satisfy the bank. The vendor will need to sort it out.

Mine was an extremely stressful purchase. It came right in the end but I really should have walked.

StumpyPumpy

JonClay wrote: »

Unfortunately not, Martin. The vendor's solicitor says that the copy that they have is the same.

There MUST (hopefully) be a more legible copy somewhere. Whilst the flat is from around 1900, the lease is from 1984 so surely an original must still exist? Minefield!!!

If it were me I'd make the sale conditional on having a fully readable leasehold document with a transcript signed off by the freeholder otherwise I'd walk away.

It isn't your job (and by extension, not your solicitor's) to hunt out a readable lease, it is the vendors problem and you don't want it to become yours if you subsequently want to sell. Someone must have a readable copy else how can the lease be enforced?

You say that the lease is from 1984 and I assume that the length of the lease is readable. Let's say it states at the top that it is for 125 years. What if the lease has a clause stating that the lease is extendible to 999 years for a charge of £1 if the lessee meets some criteria that you happen to, but that part is illegible now? The fact that part of the document is unreadable makes it as hard to prove a clause like that is not there than to prove it is.

Ok, I know that is an extreme and implausible example, but not totally impossible: I know of at lease one house built on church land whose lease had a clause stating that no ground rent was payable if the lessee was a member of the cloth.

SP

martindow

JonClay wrote: »

The problem is that the text has shifted and starts at the centre of the page due to the terrible photocopying. So, the first word is roughly starting at the centre of the page and the sentences trail off half way through. Unfortunately it's not a case of the text size or the text being smudged etc. - it's more of a problem that half the words just aren't there

Doesn't this mean that if the leases for the other flats are very similar (assuming they are readable) that would allow the paperwork for your flat to be reconstructed? I would think it is up to the vendor to sort this out.

steampowered

Might the freeholder have a better copy?

The vendor should try getting in touch with the freeholder, at least.

Perhaps the freeholder will be willing to reissue a copy of the lease, in the same terms as the other leases, if the vendor pays their legal costs in doing so (I can't imagine this would be too expensive).