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Faulty replacement Kindle Fire after 11 months - "buy a new one"

I'm struggling with Amazon and their customer support and would love the input of the MSE forums. Here's a timeline:
29/12/14: Amazon Kindle Fire warranty activated. Purchase details are uncertain, may have been on high street.
25/06/15: Kindle Fire identified as faulty by Amazon Live Chat, replacement issued.
03/07/15: Replacement Kindle Fire received from Amazon.
24/09/15: "90 days warranty period" for replacement devices expires.
20/06/16: Replacement Kindle Fire identified as defective by Amazon Live Chat. Options given: 10% off a new device.
This device model is no longer current. Amazon says it cannot be repaired or replaced but their phrasing makes me think that they mean that it can't be done due to the expired warranty rather than that it's impossible.

I also have a balance of Amazon Coins which are now unusable. Amazon says they may only be used with "any compatible device" which means Kindle Fire or Android devices. I now have no compatible devices available. Amazon refuse to refund as cash or gift balance and will not otherwise address the issue other than to repeat "Any android device is compatible.".

I emailed Amazon my concerns and can post the reply here but for brevity I'll paraphrase as "No, because. Try CAB, Trading Standards or the Retail Ombudsman* (we're not a member). Don't contact us.".

FWIW the Consumer Ombudsman* told me they can't help because the original device contract was pre-2015, which makes me think that this issue may not be bound by the Consumer Rights Act.

I'm waiting for a reply from the CAB but in the meantime I'd appreciate any comments about my situation, particularly if you know
  • Is it the Sale of Goods Act that applies here?
  • Are Amazon allowed to offer only 90 days warranty against faults for replacement devices?
  • Am I entitled to a refund for the value of the Amazon Coins?
  • Are Amazon Coins considered goods under the relevant laws?

* Reference links to these different ombudsmen were removed
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Comments

  • marliepanda
    marliepanda Posts: 7,186 Forumite
    edited 6 October 2016 at 5:01PM
    1. Yes the SOGA could apply.
    2. Yes they can offer a warranty of 90seconds under their guarantee if they wanted.
    3. Probably not
    4. Probably not

    When you say 'identified as defective' what exactly do you mean? You told them it didn't work and they agreed? Does it have a built in flaw?

    SOGA only applies to inherent faults, not that it doesn't work now.
  • bod1467
    bod1467 Posts: 15,214 Forumite
    SOGA only applies to inherent faults, not that it doesn't work now.

    The latter could still be as a result of the former. ;)

    But the seller may require the consumer to prove such a claim before offering a remedy.
  • theonlywayisup
    theonlywayisup Posts: 16,032 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Are you the original purchaser? Does Amazon allow warranty transfers?
  • susancs
    susancs Posts: 3,888 Forumite
    daytona0 wrote: »

    As a practical solution, I would just register your account onto a friend's phone/kindle and "sell" the coins to them! Or just buy a cheap android phone and voila you've got a replacement for the kindle!

    Brand new Kindle Fire tablets were sold for £35 in last years Black Friday deals in Tesco, Argos etc. Probably will be a similar price or less this year as currently under £50. Older second hand models like OPs are on ebay with starting prices from £5 currently.
  • Thank you your comments and advice so far.
    When you say 'identified as defective' what exactly do you mean? You told them it didn't work and they agreed? Does it have a built in flaw?
    I contacted Live Chat on 3 occasions regarding the Kindle. Each time, I was guided through the troubleshooting process before I was told: "Since the necessary troubleshooting steps have already taken we need to look into replacing the Kindle."; "It seems that your Kindle is defective and it needs to be replaced." and "It seems that your Fire device is faulty." Is this enough for me to claim there was a defect present on receipt? In my mind, the word "defective" refers to an inherent problem. Am I wrong to think that?
    daytona0 wrote: »
    Indeed, because OP's wording strongly suggests it was a gift. Would that mean SOGA is technically between the purchaser and Amazon anyway?
    I don't remember the purchase; it may have been a gift. Let's assume it was. Amazon willingly replaced the original faulty device in 2015. If the SOGA doesn't apply to a gift, does it apply to the replacement device? If not, does something else?

    Regarding proving the fault - Amazon have only gone from "try these troubleshooting steps" to "it seems your device is defective and need replaced" to "we can't help you outwith warranty". I have been given no opportunity or request to prove anything. Amazon refuse to speculate on specific potential causes and they say there is no service centre available, nor any approved 3rd party repairer. I had earlier assumed that if I took it to a repair shop that isn't approved, Amazon would view that as my breach of contract but Live Chat tonight tells me that is not the case - a 3rd party repair does not affect my rights. So, before I get a report, is there anything I should know about where to go or what the report must say? I'd hate to do it just to later find that only national companies are considered credible or something like that.

    Regarding the coins - if they are normal goods then can I argue that they're not fit for purpose? They are irrevocably attached to my account, I have no devices on which I can use them and they are not transferable in any way. I appreciate that it's just too bad if it turns out my Kindle was broken by me, but if I can't use these coins because of an acknowledged inherent fault then that must be different, right?
  • unholyangel
    unholyangel Posts: 16,864 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Thank you your comments and advice so far.

    I contacted Live Chat on 3 occasions regarding the Kindle. Each time, I was guided through the troubleshooting process before I was told: "Since the necessary troubleshooting steps have already taken we need to look into replacing the Kindle."; "It seems that your Kindle is defective and it needs to be replaced." and "It seems that your Fire device is faulty." Is this enough for me to claim there was a defect present on receipt? In my mind, the word "defective" refers to an inherent problem. Am I wrong to think that?

    I don't remember the purchase; it may have been a gift. Let's assume it was. Amazon willingly replaced the original faulty device in 2015. If the SOGA doesn't apply to a gift, does it apply to the replacement device? If not, does something else?

    Regarding proving the fault - Amazon have only gone from "try these troubleshooting steps" to "it seems your device is defective and need replaced" to "we can't help you outwith warranty". I have been given no opportunity or request to prove anything. Amazon refuse to speculate on specific potential causes and they say there is no service centre available, nor any approved 3rd party repairer. I had earlier assumed that if I took it to a repair shop that isn't approved, Amazon would view that as my breach of contract but Live Chat tonight tells me that is not the case - a 3rd party repair does not affect my rights. So, before I get a report, is there anything I should know about where to go or what the report must say? I'd hate to do it just to later find that only national companies are considered credible or something like that.

    Regarding the coins - if they are normal goods then can I argue that they're not fit for purpose? They are irrevocably attached to my account, I have no devices on which I can use them and they are not transferable in any way. I appreciate that it's just too bad if it turns out my Kindle was broken by me, but if I can't use these coins because of an acknowledged inherent fault then that must be different, right?

    Firstly defective - yes you are wrong to think that. If I drop my dvd player and it stops working, its still faulty but not inherently so.

    Secondly amazon - contracts with them are subject to the laws of the duchy of luxembourg, not the UK so even if you had purchased it from them the soga wouldn't apply (you'd have similar rights under EU legislation but I believe luxembourg limit claims to 2 years where UK is 6 from purchase in england & wales and 5 from discovery in scotland). Even if you did have soga rights, the most they would be liable for would be a partial refund. If what susancs said is correct - that theres a second hand market for ones like yours starting at £5....they could use that to prove the value left in the item is that amount.

    Amazon wont be asking you to prove the fault probably because its not a soga or cra claim, it is an out of warranty claim with no contractual obligations or liability to you on their part. Getting a report is a very bad idea. Even if it was the retailer, I'd still caution paying out what is likely to be at least £20-30 for the chance of only getting £5 back. Of course they'd pay the report if found in your favour but you'd still have to spend time getting the report then arguing the toss with the retailer. Thats without going into the issue of it being a gift and whether statutory rights transferred.

    And no you cant get a refund for the coins. The goods/service was supplied. Its still available for you to access - they are not liable for upkeep of your equipment or for ensuring that you have equipment to access it. You possibly still have options you havent considered. Such as borrowing a friend/family members smart phone or tablet. Or if you have a laptop/desktop, download an emulator (handy andy is one I've heard of, not sure about any others).

    Some things in life are worth fighting for. Imo, this definitely isn't one of those things.
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride
  • Firstly defective - yes you are wrong to think that. If I drop my dvd player and it stops working, its still faulty but not inherently so.
    Your DVD player may develop a fault caused by damage, but surely it can't become defective? It's a semantics argument but "defective" is the word they used.
    Secondly amazon - contracts with them are subject to the laws of the duchy of luxembourg, not the UK so even if you had purchased it from them the soga wouldn't apply (you'd have similar rights under EU legislation but I believe luxembourg limit claims to 2 years where UK is 6 from purchase in england & wales and 5 from discovery in scotland).
    The original Kindle was registered in December 2014, so presumably I'm protected regardless. Can you tell me what statutes do apply in this situation? I've had conflicting advice so far.
    Even if you did have soga rights, the most they would be liable for would be a partial refund. If what susancs said is correct - that theres a second hand market for ones like yours starting at £5....they could use that to prove the value left in the item is that amount.
    So far the cheapest option I can find for this model is £39.99 refurbished.
    Amazon wont be asking you to prove the fault probably because its not a soga or cra claim, it is an out of warranty claim with no contractual obligations or liability to you on their part.
    That's the root of my problem - Amazon are treating it thus but I believe I still have applicable rights in this situation. Are you saying that I don't? That UK customers who have a faulty Kindle replaced are only protected against the replacement not being fit for purpose for 90 days?
    And no you cant get a refund for the coins. The goods/service was supplied. Its still available for you to access - they are not liable for upkeep of your equipment or for ensuring that you have equipment to access it.
    Even where the coins were bought on and for use on a device which has since revealed a fault (assuming the fault is proven to be the manufacturer's)?
    You possibly still have options you havent considered. Such as borrowing a friend/family members smart phone or tablet. Or if you have a laptop/desktop, download an emulator (handy andy is one I've heard of, not sure about any others).
    Thanks, I hadn't considered an emulator. However, I can't use any of these options. I appreciate you trying to help me find a way around my problem but in general I don't understand how this kind of thing can be seen as an appropriate solution rather than an inconvenient workaround. For example, let's say my car was in the garage for new tyres and I also paid them to fill the fuel tank. When I collect it, the tank is full but the tyres haven't been replaced so the car is not roadworthy. Do I still have to pay for the fuel because I could siphon it into a friend's car?
  • unholyangel
    unholyangel Posts: 16,864 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Your DVD player may develop a fault caused by damage, but surely it can't become defective? It's a semantics argument but "defective" is the word they used.
    The original Kindle was registered in December 2014, so presumably I'm protected regardless. Can you tell me what statutes do apply in this situation? I've had conflicting advice so far.
    So far the cheapest option I can find for this model is £39.99 refurbished.

    That's the root of my problem - Amazon are treating it thus but I believe I still have applicable rights in this situation. Are you saying that I don't? That UK customers who have a faulty Kindle replaced are only protected against the replacement not being fit for purpose for 90 days? Even where the coins were bought on and for use on a device which has since revealed a fault (assuming the fault is proven to be the manufacturer's)? Thanks, I hadn't considered an emulator. However, I can't use any of these options. I appreciate you trying to help me find a way around my problem but in general I don't understand how this kind of thing can be seen as an appropriate solution rather than an inconvenient workaround. For example, let's say my car was in the garage for new tyres and I also paid them to fill the fuel tank. When I collect it, the tank is full but the tyres haven't been replaced so the car is not roadworthy. Do I still have to pay for the fuel because I could siphon it into a friend's car?

    You can't get specific advice without giving specific details.

    You dont remember how it even came to be in your possession so no idea of who would be entitled to make a claim based on consumer rights let alone who those rights would be enforceable against or what laws might apply.

    You need to be able to show you have a claim against someone on a legal basis. No legal basis = no way to enforce it. A contract is a two sided promise - each party agrees to suffer a detriment in exchange for a benefit - called consideration. If you have no consideration then you have no legal contract and therefore, they have no legal liability.
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride
  • wealdroam
    wealdroam Posts: 19,181 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    For example, let's say my car was in the garage for new tyres and I also paid them to fill the fuel tank. When I collect it, the tank is full but the tyres haven't been replaced so the car is not roadworthy. Do I still have to pay for the fuel because I could siphon it into a friend's car?
    What a crazy analogy.
    The answer is yes you do have to pay for the fuel. It's in your car. You asked for it to be put in your car.


    Now back to your Kindle.

    Let's assume you found this Kindle in the street - perfectly possible as you have told us you don't remember how you acquired the thing - and it was faulty when you found it.

    Do you think Amazon or anyone else has any responsibility for getting it working again?
  • OK, the car analogy was a mistake. My point was that the reasonable possibility of use of the fuel depends on the garage having fixed the car as agreed, which they didn't.

    Anyway, let's say hypothetically that the original device was found (faulty) on the street and was registered to my account. Are the manufacturers then not responsible in any way? Not hypothetically, Amazon replaced that device as faulty within 7 months. Is a contract implied there? Is it not reasonable to expect that replacement to function for as long as a year?
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