Land issue, urgent help needed

Bermuda34

I will try to keep this brief.
We have lived in a property for 14 years and used a small piece of land (12ft x 6ft) adjoined to our property immediately outside our front door as a paved garden patio area for all of this time and always assumed the land came with the property and belonged to us.
The property next door is rented out.
Up until a couple of years ago we had a pleasant outlook overlooking greenery, since the Tennant moved into the property we have been looking at a row of bins, constant pile of fag ends and a large van.
We recently decided it would be better to look at a 2m fence than this eyesore, and the fence would offer us some much needed privacy.
We started to erect the fence and have been told by the Tennant that his landlord is not happy and claims to own the land we have been using, this is a complete shock to us, the Tennant also says the landlord produced a copy of the deeds but it wasn't clear where the boundary is or if there is a boundary at all.
We searched the land registry online and there is no information available for the property next door or the land in question.
We thought we may have a case for adverse possession but this looks doubtful as we have never actually fenced off the land we have been using.
This is an absolute nightmare, any help or advice would be massively appreciated.

Enterprise_1701C

Have you looked at your deeds?

Didn't realise adverse possession required land to be fenced.

There is a user profile on here, Land Registry representative, that should be able to help you. Hopefully they will do a search on here come Monday and give you some advice.

It seems strange that land in front of your front door would actually belong to someone else but stranger things have happened.

moneyistooshorttomention

Does your Title Plan include that bit of land?

That should answer it once and for all whether the red line comes at the front edge of your house or extends some feet beyond it. With the size of the bit of land concerned then it should be clear enough - despite the darn "general boundaries rule" (with its leeway of 18" either way) that we have in this country - rather than boundaries fixed exactly to the inch.

It would be very odd not to own the land immediately outside the front door (bar it being a Victorian terrace house straight onto a street type set-up). After all - it would be a wierd situation to know that literally the second puts a foot outside a front door that that foot would be on someone else's land (ding - bell went off on head and wonders if that is the whole idea of what is going on here....ie landlord is trying to make out land that is probably yours is his = in order to sell your own land to you).

If that land really is his - then you would have something written, presumably, in your Title Plan/Registry entry stating that you have a "right of way" officially across that land. If there isn't anything saying that on your own entry - then that would seem to indicate that you don't need a "right of way" because it is your own land.

Davesnave

If your title plan indicates that this is your land, just continue erecting the fence and tell the tenant that their landlord should contact you if there is a problem about it, as you can only resolve the matter with him/her.

It may be that the tenant is just telling porkies. After all, if it's that important, why should the landlord pass messages via a third party? Of course there is a boundary, and it's ridiculous to suggest there isn't.

Remember that title plans are not capable of providing an exact measure on the ground due to difficulties with accuracy and scaling, so just take features in the real world as extra guidance and try to put the fence just on your side of where you think the boundary should be.

moneyistooshorttomention

Further thought is = how come it's the tenant talking to you and not the landlord?

If that bit of land really belonged to next door - then surely the landlord would be doing his own work and claiming it? Or, more to the point, would have stated it's his long before now.

Does sound like a try-on by the tenant - and the landlord probably doesn't even know anything about it.

EDIT; pile of fag-ends on ground and large van and I'll hazard a guess tenant is a chav and you aren't and the only reason you are concerned is feeling nervous about possible aggro. from them because they are acting intimidating. Blow someone acting intimidating - just state facts as calmly as possible to them and don't act intimidated (voice of experience - as one of my nfh households are like that...but things have now been sorted and peace reigns).

Hoploz

So let's get this straight. The landlord popped down and saw you erecting this fence. Went away to find his deeds, then came back and showed the tenant this piece of paper as well.

If this really came from the landlord I think he would have at some point come to you himself while he was there.

Check your own deeds ... And if it's appears true that you don't own the land (can't see how this layout would work - do you step out of side of house or something?) then carry on regardless and wait to hear something from the LL if he genuinely is bothered about it. And look into Adverse Possession in more depth.

Davesnave

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

Further thought is = how come it's the tenant talking to you and not the landlord?

If that bit of land really belonged to next door - then surely the landlord would be doing his own work and claiming it? Or, more to the point, would have stated it's his long before now.

Unless the landlord has a reason for staying under the radar, such as a lack of gas safety certs or non-declared income to HMRC, lack of info to the mortgage provider.....etc

....in which case the fence may be a relatively minor issue in the general scheme of things.

moneyistooshorttomention

Now you wouldnt be envisualising a "wall of surround sound" attack at the landlord would you Dave?;)

I'd think it more likely the landlord is behaving themselves perfectly well all round - but the tenant was hoping to make a grab for this bit of land to edge over bit by bit that little bit more as to where he parks his van - and eventually it would be sitting right outside OP's front door. I've watched that sort of tactic in action on other peoples land.

In OP's position - I would probably contact the landlord and inform him what his tenant is up to trying to use some of my land and request him to point out to his tenant where the boundaries lie (after I'd put my fence up).

Cakeguts

When did the landlord produce a copy of the deeds for the property next door and why did he only show it to the tenants and not you? This does not make sense. Tell the tenants next door to move their van to somewhere else and all the other stuff that is on your garden.

My guess is that they are trying to defend a parking space for the van that they otherwise wouldn't have. It is probably the way that you talked to them about this. They think you are a push over.

You need a copy of your deeds and tell the tenants next door that if the landlord is worried you will discuss it with him not the tenants and until that happens you are erecting a fence.

Auntie-Dolly

Slightly OT, but if the fence adjoins the highway you need planning permission if it is over 1m high.

Davesnave

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

Now you wouldnt be envisualising a "wall of surround sound" attack at the landlord would you Dave?;) .

I'm not envisaging anything; just inferring reasons why a landlord might act that way.

There also exists the possibility that the tenant has made it all up.

Nowhere in the OP does it say the tenants are actually using the land.

There are tenants next door to me who put unattractive objects on the land they rent. I just use my large van to block the view of them until such time as I plant evergreens to hide them permanently.