profiteering

dickydonkin

phatbear wrote: »

Consider this the airport i work at yesterday cancelled their one outbound and inbound barcelona flight so if you intended to fly from barcelona onto for example thailand then you would miss your connection and the airline who were going to take you from barcelona and back again would have no responsibility to get you on another flight.

This is why the more cautious traveller would take their positioning flight a day before their EU departure.

Back to Backs are just too risky for me and there are too many factors that can delay or even cancel a flight.

I accept that that doing it this way, you have to factor in the price of positioning flights and a hotel, although this can be mitigated if you have hotel and airline points to burn, but even if you have to pay, as I alluded to in another thread, peace of mind is priceless.

jpsartre

dickydonkin wrote: »

This is why the more cautious traveller would take their positioning flight a day before their EU departure.

I would say it's more important to leave enough time to be able to make use of other options. For instance, catching the last flight to (say) Dublin in order to be on the first flight back to London (or whereever) the following morning would be too risky for me since I will have no way to make connection should my flight be cancelled. I've only done ex-EU trips a couple of times but my rule of thumb has been to make sure I had at least two other flights I could get on and still make my connection should my flight be cancelled or significantly delayed.

At some airports (like CPH) a true back-to-back positioning flight (i.e. flying there and back on the same plane) is essentially foolproof.

dickydonkin

jpsartre wrote: »

I would say it's more important to leave enough time to be able to make use of other options. For instance, catching the last flight to (say) Dublin in order to be on the first flight back to London (or whereever) the following morning would be too risky for me since I will have no way to make connection should my flight be cancelled. I've only done ex-EU trips a couple of times but my rule of thumb has been to make sure I had at least two other flights I could get on and still make my connection should my flight be cancelled or significantly delayed.

At some airports (like CPH) a true back-to-back positioning flight (i.e. flying there and back on the same plane) is essentially foolproof.

One of the risk reducing tactics I deploy is to avoid the last flight from anywhere.

I agree some airports are not so problematic for back to backs, but that option still has an element of risk about it, particularly if the outbound positioning flight goes tech.

Taking the positioning flight the day before just significantly reduces the possibility of problems, reduces stress, and gives you another add on to your trip in the departure destination.

jpsartre

dickydonkin wrote: »

I agree some airports are not so problematic for back to backs, but that option still has an element of risk about it, particularly if the outbound positioning flight goes tech.

But if that happens it will affect your inbound flight as well, that's why it's essentially foolproof.

SW17

dickydonkin wrote: »

One of the risk reducing tactics I deploy is to avoid the last flight from anywhere.

I agree some airports are not so problematic for back to backs, but that option still has an element of risk about it, particularly if the outbound positioning flight goes tech.

Taking the positioning flight the day before just significantly reduces the possibility of problems, reduces stress, and gives you another add on to your trip in the departure destination.

There is no real element of risk on a true back to back with the same aircraft as long as the airport involved is not a hub for the airline you are using. If the outbound positioning flight goes tech, the first flight of your ex-EU is going to be affected and you would be rebooked.

This would be the same outcome if you had arrived at the start point of the ex-EU days earlier, hence the lack of risk. Your trip would be disrupted and maybe a bit more stressful if you're not familiar with what to do, but it would be protected.

[edit - jpsartre answered while I was typing...:)]

richardw

SW17 wrote: »

...If the outbound positioning flight goes tech, the first flight of your ex-EU is going to be affected and you would be rebooked....

The airline could wet lease an aircraft and crew from a supplier.

dickydonkin

jpsartre wrote: »

But if that happens it will affect your inbound flight as well, that's why it's essentially foolproof.

SW17 wrote: »

There is no real element of risk on a true back to back with the same aircraft as long as the airport involved is not a hub for the airline you are using. If the outbound positioning flight goes tech, the first flight of your ex-EU is going to be affected and you would be rebooked.

This would be the same outcome if you had arrived at the start point of the ex-EU days earlier, hence the lack of risk. Your trip would be disrupted and maybe a bit more stressful if you're not familiar with what to do, but it would be protected.

[edit - jpsartre answered while I was typing...:)]

How would it be protected? - I have never (and don't intend to) done a B2B and I am just curious to know how things would pan out if something went belly up.

I get it that you would be protected if the INITIAL outbound sector of the ex eu was delayed and subsequent connections were missed, but would you have the same protection if you missed the first sector due to being stuck in immigration or security and then missed the first sector of the ex EU when attempting a B2B?

If you were doing an ex EU say from Dublin, the outbound from the UK would surely to be on a different ticket as the benefits of flying ex EU would not apply.

The return element of the B2B would be the commencement of the ex EU trip (I get that) and would have to be on a different ticket (presumably).

If you miss your first sector of the EX eu for whatever reason say for delays in immigration/security, I would have thought the airline is under no obligation if you fail to meet conformance - despite being the same carrier - and that to me seems risky.

I know BA are reluctant to interline nowadays as I discovered last week in the US - despite both of my itineraries (transatlantic sectors and positioning return flights) booked with them, but I allowed sufficient time for connections anyway.

Unless I am travelling alone, we always have checked luggage anyway, so obviously, B2B would in the majority of situations, be unsuitable for me, but despite many I'm sure having no issues with back to backs, for someone like me who always believes that if something can go wrong - it will - then I don't think I would ever be convinced.

But maybe I'm missing something here. Foolproof? I need convincing.

jpsartre

dickydonkin wrote: »

How would it be protected? - I have never (and don't intend to) done a B2B and I am just curious to know how things would pan out if something went belly up.

It's not protected per se but B2B mitigates the risk of anything going wrong. Say you're flying LHR-CPH B2B to start an CPH-LHR-JFK ex-EU itinerary. If your flight to CPH is delayed, your flight from CPH will be delayed as well (since it's the same aircraft) so no risk there. If your flight to CPH is cancelled, your flight from CPH will be cancelled as well and you can rebook accordingly.

It's not guaranteed foolproof - as richardw says, the airline could in theory use a different aircraft to fly the inbound part of the affected flight. In practice, however, that is unlikely to happen especially at non-hub airports.

Of course, B2B is risky if you need to clear immigration and/or security at your arriving airport or if you have checked baggage you need to collect and recheck.

Murphy_The_Cat

jpsartre wrote: »

Of course, B2B is risky if you need to clear immigration and/or security at your arriving airport or if you have checked baggage you need to collect and recheck.

Mrs Cat would castrate me if we did a B2B and it went wrong and made a mess of our holiday !

dickydonkin

jpsartre wrote: »

It's not protected per se but B2B mitigates the risk of anything going wrong. Say you're flying LHR-CPH B2B to start an CPH-LHR-JFK ex-EU itinerary. If your flight to CPH is delayed, your flight from CPH will be delayed as well (since it's the same aircraft) so no risk there. If your flight to CPH is cancelled, your flight from CPH will be cancelled as well and you can rebook accordingly.

It's not guaranteed foolproof - as richardw says, the airline could in theory use a different aircraft to fly the inbound part of the affected flight. In practice, however, that is unlikely to happen especially at non-hub airports.

Of course, B2B is risky if you need to clear immigration and/or security at your arriving airport or if you have checked baggage you need to collect and recheck.

So it isn't really 'foolproof' or 'risk free' which is enough for me not to consider attempting it - but I think I already knew that.

Incidentally, wouldn't everyone arriving into the EU departure point from the UK have to go landside anyway - making the risk of being held up in security or immigration unavoidable?

Murphy_The_Cat wrote: »

Mrs Cat would castrtate me if we did a B2B and it went wrong and made a mess of our holiday !

I get it in the neck (which is I suppose better than the part of the anatomy you are referring to ) when I arrive at the airport ultra early and spend more time there than necessary!