children's views for custody

gonzo127

Hi all, just after some thoughts or experiences on how childrens views get taken into account in regards to custody battles, first off some background

my daughter has just turned 8.

i left the family home nearly a year and a half ago, originally organised the contact that i would see my daughter every Wednesday after work, and every other weekend Friday to Sunday,

anyways about 6 months ago my daughter told me she wanted to spend more time with me. i therefore contacted her mum to ask if we could extend my weekend into the week so i got to see my daughter more.

to say my ex's reaction was bad, would be an understatement, accusing me of using my daughter as a weapon against her, calling me names etc etc, after about a week of abusive messages and confrontations, i finally told her that it was what our daughter wanted, and if she didn't believe me to ask her, unfortunately she did this in a rather harsh fashion as i had my daughter crying over the phone at me.

but after about 3 weeks, my ex agreed to let me have her for longer, although not the days i had proposed, but something that i can work with. so now have my daughter every other weekend Wednesday to Sunday night (i do the school runs on the days i have her) and then the other Wednesday after school for dinner.

however all the plans that were made for the school holidays (Easter and summer) were changed at the last min by my ex, causing me great issues at work, we had discussed and i had even drawn up a calendar shows the dates each of us had agreed to have her over the holidays, which was done back at Christmas, for example, as my ex works Monday to Wednesdays, we i had agree to change my weekends so instead of having her on the Wednesday to Sunday i would have her from Friday to Wednesday, so my ex didn't have to organised as much childcare whilst she worked, and would also see our daughter more on the days she had off. but on the very first week i was supposed to have her, she told me she had booked the week off and was taking her away so i couldn't have her on the Monday to Wednesday. so i had to rearrange my holidays at work with only a couple of weeks notice (Easter was similar but only 2 days notice) which as you could imagine didn't go down well at work

so fast forward to just recently and my daughter has been talking more to me about things and has said a few times that she would prefer to live with me and just visit her mum, because 'i actually do things with her' and at her mums she just gets told to put the tv on and watch something.

then last night, after having had a lovely 5 days with her, i had her sobbing in tears for nearly 2 hours because she wanted to stay with me. not wanting to make things more difficult in future i managed to get her organised to take her back, unfortunately this took a little bit longer than normal so we was a little late (15 mins, baring in mind that i regularly have to wait for 30 mins to pick her up from her mums, because her mum had to 'do something') anyways as soon as we get there her mum bursts into a rant about us being late etc, and so my daughter bursts into tears again, which her mums only reaction is to say, oh great so you leave me with the tears!!! which of course upsets my daughter even more.

in the middle of all that her mum said some nasty things about me 'stealing her friends' because i had organised for my daughter to meet up with one of her friends over the weekend (the town i live in had a 'festival' running), anyways her mum came with her and as the girls where having so much fun together, the original plan of spending a couple of hours at the festival, ended up turning into a whole day. but i guess thats by the by.

so there is the basic back ground, but due to all of this i am looking into if/how i might get more time with my daughter and am even considering if i could try for full custody, however knowing as there is no proper or provable abuse, i know the likelihood of full custody is minimal, but just wondered if anyone had any experience on to how a court (if it goes that far) would take the wishes of an 8 year old.

or any advise on how i might be able to word the approach into increasing the contact arrangements again, because i know that if i tell her the my daughter wants more contact again, i will more than likely end up with a very upset daughter again, and i would much rather take the abuse that is thrown my way, than have my daughter upset again, but also know that due to my current anger/upset at how things transpired last night, i know i might not word it as diplomatically as i could

neneromanova

I think it's best to find a good family lawyer and see what they say. Go for a half hour appointment. it may end up nothing coming of it, but it could also be the best half hour you ever spnd talking to someone

Caroline_a

Please don't fight with your ex over this. Your daughter will be stuck in the middle and it will be her who is most affected by it. My ex decided that he wanted custody of my daughter (she was 9, so not so very different), and spent much of his time with her saying 'you want to live with me, dont you?'. Of course she said yes - she wanted to please him, but then she wanted to please both of us!

As the non-custodial parent, you probably have more time to plan and pay for 'doing things with her' - her mother is probably more concerned with running the household, etc. It's very easy to be the benevolent parent, and for a young child that is very appealing. If you involve lawyers it won't end well for anyone, except the lawyer who will be somewhat richer.

Try to work with her mother - use a mediation service if you have to, but you should both try to act almost as if you were still together - her mother is not a bad mother now, any more than she was when you were together, and children are very very good at setting one parent against the other!

Edit - as an aside, in my case my ex pushed for court and it cost me £13k over 20 years ago. Every court action was instigated by him, my costs were only because I had to respond. Surely that sort of money would be better spent on your daughter?

gonzo127

Caroline_a wrote: »

Please don't fight with your ex over this. Your daughter will be stuck in the middle and it will be her who is most affected by it. My ex decided that he wanted custody of my daughter (she was 9, so not so very different), and spent much of his time with her saying 'you want to live with me, dont you?'. Of course she said yes - she wanted to please him, but then she wanted to please both of us!

As the non-custodial parent, you probably have more time to plan and pay for 'doing things with her' - her mother is probably more concerned with running the household, etc. It's very easy to be the benevolent parent, and for a young child that is very appealing. If you involve lawyers it won't end well for anyone, except the lawyer who will be somewhat richer.

Try to work with her mother - use a mediation service if you have to, but you should both try to act almost as if you were still together - her mother is not a bad mother now, any more than she was when you were together, and children are very very good at setting one parent against the other!

Edit - as an aside, in my case my ex pushed for court and it cost me £13k over 20 years ago. Every court action was instigated by him, my costs were only because I had to respond. Surely that sort of money would be better spent on your daughter?

trust me i do not want to 'fight' for this, as i would like to talk it through and agree something, but based on the last round of 'fun' trying to get 2 extra days every fortnight i do not believe she will even consider letting her stay at mine more on top of this - honestly i had about a month of accusations, name calling and general unpleasantness for just asking if we could talk about increasing the contact i have.

as to coaching her, i would never do that to her, the comments about wanting to stay with me are down to her saying it to me, and all the tears because she had to go back to her mums last, ok last night was the worst its been, but every time i have to take her back she says she doesnt want to go, and im trying to make it seem good by saying she will get to see her mum and cat again, but she still doesnt want to go

as to more time, hm i work on average 45 hours a week (not including the 1 hour traveling each way), she works 16 a week over 3 days during school hours (she works 5 mins away from her house and the school), and has 5 days and 1 evening a fortnight (as i pick her up from school in the evening and take he back ready for bed, she pretty much has 6 out of 14 days at mine) in which she has no work or child to look after.

to be honest i cant buy the 'no time' to play or spend time with her child argument, as i make the time, even if i have to leave the jobs till she has gone to bed, or another day.

money wise, yes i probably have more money to spend on her, but then again, i spend very little on myself, my ex usually buys at least a new pair of shoes, or a new outfit for herself every month. and its not as if i dont try to give them money to do things, as i pay over 25% more than the CSA amount, even though i know that just goes on shoes and clothes for my ex, and not my daughter ok so i know i am just a man, but i can not understand why a person needs 40+ pairs of shoes

but actually a lot of the things i do with her cost little to nothing, such as taking a football/basketball up to the park and having a kick/bounce about, then letting her play on the swings etc, going to the beach, or just going on a pokehunt (god damn that game lol, although we have walked nearly 100km since we got it so thats great), and i have a annual pass to one of the local zoo's for us both (even paid for a second card so her mum only has to pay for herself which is about £40 for the year), we also play a lot of board games, and even a few video games, in which we play together and interact, not only that but i get her involved in the cooking etc, but from what she has told me when she is at her mums, she is either playing on her 2DS her tablet or watching TV

and well when i was with my ex, i did all those things with my daughter anyway, and her mum sometimes tagged along, but it was pretty much always me taking her somewhere, so although i understand she hasnt changed the way she is, and is still the same mother, i guess i am noticing it more now (as is my daughter) and do not want my daughter to become a couch potato (she has put on significant weight since i moved out)

Caroline_a

Apologies for any misunderstanding - the 'coaching' reference applied to what happened in my circumstances, I was not implying that you did that.

Regardless though of the shoe issue, etc, I would say that you almost need to side with your ex with the sort of responses you are getting from your daughter. As far as the tears to - little girls are very very good at getting daddy to react how they want them to - I know because I have 3 daughters, and besides I was once a little girl myself!!

Regarding the activity and not wanting her to turn into a couch potato, how about encouraging her to start a new sport? She's a good age to start, and there are many many opportunities for youngsters to get into sport now. It will give her a social life outside school as well as teach her some valuable life lessons - teamwork, resilience, and how to win and lose. You could even offer to pay for these, and attend any matches etc if you can get the time off work.

Again, not casting any aspersions on either your or your ex's childcare habits, it is very easy when you don't have the child the majority of the time to entertain them for the period of time you do have them. I believe that children should also be taught to entertain themselves - 'playing out' appears to be a thing of the past. Is there a garden at her mum's that she could play in? Mine used to spend hours outside playing imagination games etc. Does your daughter do this? TV and iPads don't encourage imaginative play which is so valuable for growing minds.

However.... you have to do this your own way. I am only offering my experience and I'm sure others will come in to offer theirs too.

gonzo127

Caroline_a wrote: »

Apologies for any misunderstanding - the 'coaching' reference applied to what happened in my circumstances, I was not implying that you did that.

Regardless though of the shoe issue, etc, I would say that you almost need to side with your ex with the sort of responses you are getting from your daughter. As far as the tears to - little girls are very very good at getting daddy to react how they want them to - I know because I have 3 daughters, and besides I was once a little girl myself!!

Regarding the activity and not wanting her to turn into a couch potato, how about encouraging her to start a new sport? She's a good age to start, and there are many many opportunities for youngsters to get into sport now. It will give her a social life outside school as well as teach her some valuable life lessons - teamwork, resilience, and how to win and lose. You could even offer to pay for these, and attend any matches etc if you can get the time off work.

Again, not casting any aspersions on either your or your ex's childcare habits, it is very easy when you don't have the child the majority of the time to entertain them for the period of time you do have them. I believe that children should also be taught to entertain themselves - 'playing out' appears to be a thing of the past. Is there a garden at her mum's that she could play in? Mine used to spend hours outside playing imagination games etc. Does your daughter do this? TV and iPads don't encourage imaginative play which is so valuable for growing minds.

However.... you have to do this your own way. I am only offering my experience and I'm sure others will come in to offer theirs too.

sorry if it feels i am getting defensive, as i said i know i am angry and upset about things, so maybe not being the most diplomatic, but i do appreciate your thoughts and experiences.

as to the taking sides, hm the problem is i do want my daughter with me more, so its difficult to side with her mum as her mum wants me to have her less than i have at the moment, so somewhat a conflict of interest there. but i will keep to the current arrangement, even though when my ex started moaning about 'leaving her with the tears' all i wanted to do is turn around and say if thats how you feel she can come back to mine.

for sport, well i tried getting her doing basketball after school, of which she went to for a few weeks, but her mum was 'struggling' getting her to and from it on her weeks before the summer holiday as over the summer my daughter said she doesnt want to go back, even though the few times she went she loved it and couldnt stop talking about it. im trying to encourage her to try and again and see how she does, but i have my suspicions that her mum might be encouraging her not to go. will look into other options see if i can find something

as to the entertainment aspect, as i said i basically have her 6 out of 14 days compared to her mums 8 out of 14 so its not a huge discrepancy, and thats not even taking into account the large discrepancy in working hours in between, but i will always make time for my daughter, and we do both have decent size gardens (my garden is a bit smaller) but 'somehow' i manage to keep my garden mowed but my ex's is pretty much a field and my ex doesnt want her getting dirty as it makes more washing.....

i guess there probably isnt a magic bullet for all this, and will just have to approach her and take the abuse again for daring to want more time with my daughter, just petrified she is going to take it out on me by messing about with the current arrangements more so than she has done with the holiday arrangements

peachyprice

I believe it's around the age of 10 that courts will take a child's wishes in to account, not to say they wouldn't ever for an 8yo, but it's less likely.

[Deleted User]

I don't know if this will help. I am the mother of a now 20 year old boy. He was 10 when I split with his father. His father initially saw him a lot, then he got a gf and the visits reduced to almost nothing for years, inspite of my pleas for more contact for my son. When there was occasional contact with his father his father was very angry. Not with our son, but with me. To our son he called me a thief, a liar etc. Which was very upsetting for our son. On one occasion he refused on the phone to our son to see him anymore because he wasn't happy about the CSA being involved. It was a nightmare and inside i'd be wanting to take an axe to his father for what he was doing., but I felt I had to do what I could to heal our son, and told him over and over that his father was very angry with me so he was saying things he shouldn't. I always tried to take on board how our son was feeling, saying that sometimes people don't realise the effect of what they are saying.

Now, some years later our son still has a sporadic relationship with his father but it has at least calmed down. He doesn't reduce our son to tears anymore. Obviously i can't completely undo the damage but my son feels its important to have a relationship of some sort with his father, its his choice and I do my absolute best to support that.

I'd refuse to argue back. Its only going to make your daughter feel worse. Just say you will talk later when emotions aren't so raised. At the moment the pay off for your ex is she can vent rather than learn to deal with her feelings. She isn't seeing how upsetting HER behaviour is for your daughter (she's probably blaming that on you as well as everything else).

I am sorry, for the sake of your daughter, all you can do is maintain a dignified silence when your wife is getting angry. Just refuse to get involved in a heated discussion. Try again when things are calmer.

I really really do know how hard it is. Sometimes all you can do is make the best of a bad situation. And hope it will die down and get calmer over time. Believe it or not, his father and I even manage to have the odd civilised conversation now! I'll never forget and I'm sure neither will our son, but it is better than it was now. Sometimes that's all you can hope for.

As far as full custody is concerned, I'd wait for two or three years until your daughter is considered old enough to have a say in where she stays. For now, just concentrate on making her feel better. She probably feels its all her fault, most kids think like this.

Caroline_a

Great advice there. It's hard to maintain the moral high ground in situations like this, and many times I had to bite my tongue, particularly that, despite my ex going through the courts etc to get custody, he never paid a penny in maintenance for her. Now that's she's an adult she understands more about him - he has been a total idiot in the past few years and they now don't speak (nothing to do with me), but at least I can look back knowing that I did my best to give her a good relationship with her father. If that didn't happen, then it was down to the two of them as I always facilitated access as he demanded, and never criticised him in front of her, but oh good lord it was difficult!

[Deleted User]

Yep, it was so hard not to retaliate and let it all hang out with my ex.., but so glad I didn't. It wouldn't have done any good at all (his father in that mood was completely unreachable in terms of getting him to see what he was doing), and just upset our son even more.

The best thing was to say nothing, and give our son a big hug and let him talk it out and try and explain why his father was being like that, try and stop our son from blaming himself. I couldn't stop it completely but I could try and reduce the damage.

FBaby

I don't think there is anything wrong with your intentions and clearly it is about your daughter's needs rather than yours. However, I think there is a big caveat in all this and that is that her wishes to live with you are very recent and at her age, I wouldn't trust that it is long lasting.

Fighting her mum will leave lasting effects and if she suddenly changed her mind, going back won't be erasing what happened in between. My advice would therefore be to tell your daughter to give it more time and see if she still feels the same in 6 months time and you can then discuss it again.