PCN with complications! (Comprehensive Management Services)

hannah141

Firstly, I have read the sticky post on standard claims but none really seem to apply to my specific situation.
In December 2015, I parked in a residential area to visit a friend who lives there. The carpark is behind large electric gates and I was let in by the resident. I wasn't aware that there were restrictions on parking. Signage is subtle and discreet as far as I'm concerned.

Fast forward a few months to July 2016, when I have a bundle of letters come through to my parents address from the new owner of my old house (in Cirencester). After forgetting to sort my V5C document after the move, all the letters had been going there. The new resident had my forwarding address but obviously waited for mail to to stack up a bit before sending it on in one go. Therefore, I had no idea that this fine was payable.

Another major point I feel worth mentioning, is that there was categorically no yellow sticky PCN on my windscreen. So without the letters, I had no notification that I had a ticket.

I have now letters from ZZPS Debt collection agency and Wright Hassall Solicitors (dated 8/8/16) with threats of CCJs. The total amount due is £208.

I realise that I am at fault for not having the correct address registered to my vehicle. But I also believe that I should have been notified via sticky note at the time of ticket issue and since then, the escalation has been out of my control as I was completely unaware it existed.

What do I do? I'm worried and intimidated and don't know if I should appeal, ignore or something else. Quite honestly, I found the most recent letter really quite scary. I find a huge amount of conflicting information online.

1. Can I be taken to court?
2. I cannot have CCJs on my credit file (I'm hoping to be a first time buyer in the next 5 years or so) and I take my credit file very seriously. Can these be issued without my explicit knowledge? What warning do they give?
3. Can I claim to not be the driver?
4. Who do I get in touch with first? Solicitors/debt collectors/parking firm or landowner?
5. The poor lady who bought my house has had all these letters coming through and I really don't want someone turning up at her door if I can help it

Thank you in advance, any help will help me relax a little.

Redx

1) yes , definitely (they have 6 years to issue an MCOL)

2) if they have the correct address and give it to Northampton then the letetrs will go to the correct address from the court , you have 14 days to acknowledge and a further 14 days to respond

even if you lost in court, as long as you pay the judgment promptly, say within 28 days, no CCJ can happen

its ignoring the court that leads to a CCJ

3) yes this is one defence, but if they did not fail POFA 2012 it wont help you

4) always try to get the landowner to cancel

IGNORE the debt collectors like ZZPS

if WH have issued an LBC, you will have to write back with a "debt denied" letter

be a good idea to do that and get them to send any more letetrs to your correct address

so send WH a debt denied letter and tell them to change the address on file to your new address

I hope you have changed your V5C address ? if not it can be a fine of up to £1000 , and same again for not amending the driving license

its not a "fine" , its an invoice , an NTK , a postal notice

a similar issue here, but differEnt PPC

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=108000

ALSO ANSWERS SOME OF YOUR QUESTIONS TOO

Umkomaas

3. Can I claim to not be the driver?

You certainly can, if you weren't the actual driver.

However, I'd be reading very carefully the Chris Huhne/Vicky Pryce case before deciding on your course of action in this regard. Perjury/Perverting the Course of Justice are in a different universe compared to a private parking charge invoice!

hannah141

Umkomaas wrote: »

Perjury/Perverting the Course of Justice are in a different universe compared to a private parking charge invoice!

Sorry, I wasn't quite explicit in my original post - I would never dream of perjury etc. I was merely referring to the use of language I've seen a lot around this forum with regards to talking about 'the driver' in the third person and the discrimination between that and the 'keeper'. Sorry for my inaccurate wording!

Redx

let us just say that if you have not told them who the driver is , you dont have to and you do not have to disclose the drivers details, which makes it better for you and harder for them as they have to prove they have the correct person in front of the judge

if they do know who the driver is , then they do have the right person in court and who is accountable for the contract and perceived rule breaking

hannah141

@Redx

Firstly, thank you so much for your comprehensive reply. It's so helpful to hear everything in straight when I've been swimming through so much heavy information in the last few hours!

With regards to CCJs, thank you for confirming my thoughts. That is a huge weight off my shoulders. Is there a rough worst case scenario judgement wise on a loss in court? Is it usually around £500? I'd like to know what I'm getting myself into here!

V5C change of address is in progress, submitted as soon as I realised my error. My driving licence was already changed - V5C was the only thing I forgot to change after the move. Trust it to be one of the most important.

I will ignore ZZPS and not get in contact at all.
I'll send WH a reply correcting the address and denying the debt with the help of some template letters on this forum.
At the same time, I will write a strongly worded complaint letter to the landowner to try to get them to cancel it from their side.

I don't quite understand your comments regarding MCOL & Northampton though. Are you saying that if I change my address with WH then everything else will trickle down from there and all correspondence (including summons if it comes to that) will come to my current address?

Am I correct in thinking that there is no point in trying to reason with WH/CMS and I have to deal with it from here as if I've seen every letter? I notice in that link you kindly posted that the poster is advised to ask for a copy of all previous correspondence to ensure they have all documentation. Presumably I should also be doing that. I only have 3 letters (2x ZZPS & 1xWH) sent on to me from my old address which I doubt is all the paperwork I need.

Thank you again for your advice.

Redx

if its one pcn its maybe £175 to £225 if you lost and pay promptly

pay up after the loss and no CCJ is entered as the debt is deemed satisfied and the judgment is paid

an MCOL more or less comes from one place now , Northampton Bulk Centre (the government as centralised the service and moved it online)

give the PPC and WH your new address , pcn number , references etc and keep proof of posting (free at the PO)

do this with the GAN debt is denied letters over on pepipoo where some also talk about change of address

no summons will come , this is a civil matter

if WH issue proceedings , they will fill in the form online and you need that to have the correct address on it, the forms will come from Northampton Bulk Centre, not from WH or anyone else, just the court

you can do a part 18 request for info , photos , pcn,s etc etc then , as well as defending the claim , so it will all come to you later down the line

there is no reasoning at all, just letter tennis and debt is denied letters etc

and that strongly worded landowner letter too (the ones who employed the PPC and are jointly and severally liable for this mess)

Umkomaas

Is there a rough worst case scenario judgement wise on a loss in court? Is it usually around £500?

Nah! It would be the original charge (£100), plus their disbursements - court filing fee paid by the PPC to get you to court (£25), solicitor if they field one at court (capped at a max of £50), plus a bit of travel costs. Give or take about £200.

CMS are bit-part players. Have only dabbled at court. The cost to them of taking you to court would be far in excess of any amount they could hope to win - and they have just as much chance of losing. Do the math, as Donald Trump would say!

http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/Comprehensive_Management_Services.html

hannah141

UPDATE:

I have drafted this letter to send to Wright Hassall tomorrow.
Could someone please advise if I have the language correct?

Dear Wright Hassall,

Re: PCN at xx Sxx uare, on 13/12/15, re PCN xxxx, Your ref: xxx.

I believe you and/or your client may have been sending letters to my old address and the purpose of this letter is to inform you that my address for service of letters and any court claim, is as follows:

xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx

Do not write to my old address (xxx xxxxxxxxx) and please immediately send me a copy of your last letter or court claim, within seven days or by email to: xxxxxx so that I may consider the position and respond accordingly.


I acknowledge your letter, dated 08/08/16, which was forwarded from the new homeowner on 23/08/16.

The debt is denied. I have no intention of paying the money demanded by them as they have no locus standi regarding the PCN in question and you should inform them to refer the matter back to your client’s client, Comprehensive Management Solutions Ltd.

The debt is denied for the following reasons:
The signage is inconspicuous and uses highly ambiguous language.
The amount you have charged is not based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner. I therefore feel the amount you are asking for is excessive.

Since the debt is denied, debt collection activities are not appropriate and will be wasted costs on your part. Should the principal wish to settle the matter in court, please ensure they follow the appropriate practice directions for the civil courts.

Your firm is required to cease and desist all further contact with me. Any further correspondence from you will be considered harassment and will be reported to the appropriate authority.



Is it worth mentioning under reasons for debt denial that there was no notice to driver i.e. no yellow sticky pcn on the vehicle?

Does any of the language I use incriminate me as the driver?

Thank you!

Coupon-mad

I would just change this (as 'no loss' has no legs now, as an argument, following PE v Beavis):

The debt is denied for the following reasons:
The signage is inconspicuous and uses highly ambiguous language.
The amount you have charged is not based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner. I therefore feel the amount you are asking for is excessive.

I would suggest something like:

The debt is denied for several reasons, including but not limited to:
- The signage is inconspicuous and uses ambiguous language and small print which is impossible for a driver to read before parking.
- No contract was formed with the driver (Vine v Waltham Forest being the persuasive authority regarding unseen, unclear signage).
- No driver of this vehicle recalls any PCN being served. I require photographic evidence of the PCN served and the signage on the day.
- Your client did not use the required wording in their documents, to meet the statutory requirements for keeper liability under the POFA 2012. I cannot be held liable and there is no obligation upon me as keeper, to name the driver.

hannah141

Coupon-mad wrote: »

- Your client did not use the required wording in their documents, to meet the statutory requirements for keeper liability under the POFA 2012. I cannot be held liable and there is no obligation upon me as keeper, to name the driver. :

Am I able to claim this? As all the correspondence was sent to my old address, I don't have any proof that they did not follow proceedings correctly. I don't know if their client (ZZPS) used required wording or not. This is one of the trickier aspects of my particular case - I don't have a solid and reliable letter chain...