Dog training - Good citizen

Denene

I posted here a couple of weeks ago about introducing a dog to a cat and received some very useful and reassuring advice. Happily, they can now be in the same room, with the cat only occasionally launching aerial assaults on the dog and the dog either baffled or cowed by the cat - so thanks!

The dog went to a training class last week, and I was hoping to get some thoughts on it. It's for the KC Bronze Award, run by a local group. I've only heard about it second-hand and it seems to contradict a lot of what I've been reading, but I know that there are probably loads of training methods so does this sound okay?

• They emphasised being the dominant person/pack member. I thought this was an outdated/incorrect view?
• They physically manipulated dogs (ie. pressing down on their rear to get them to sit
• They made all the owners let the dogs off the leash, even those there for the first time. Our dog is aggressive to other dogs, especially those off-leash, so my family member didn't want to do this but the trainer took the lead off them
• They made the dogs roll over by pulling a hand down their leash, and then putting pressure on the collar until their head was forced to the floor

All of this seems to not match up with things I've read about, but they are the experts and I am completely inexperienced, so I assume it's okay?

Is this the best way to train a dog or is it worth looking elsewhere or getting one-on-one training? The dog's owners are split on whether they should keep going, and I've been drafted in as referee

Caroline_a

I did Good Citizen up to Silver Medal with my German Shepherd from when he was a puppy. It worked well - but I guess a lot has to do with who the trainer is and how much you do at home - I did a lot!

As far as pushing down on the pup to get them to sit, some pups need to be shown what 'sit' is - but it depends on how hard you push down! Most pups only need to be shown once or twice and it only needs a gentle nudge in my experience.

bouicca21

Sounds like a terrible trainer to me. My dogs are no longer with us, but I would never have taken them to a class run like you describe. Good citizen is a worthwhile objective - but find another trainer.

elsien

What you are describing is more about the trainer's outdated methods than the Good Citizen award itself. I would never put a dog through that. I am doing the GC with Gitdog and it is nothing like you describe. We only use positive reinforcement/clicker training and the emphasis is on making it fun for the dog, and applying to real life situations - no use having a dog that sits beautifully in the training room and pleases itself the rest of the time.
Find another trainer who uses different methods - there are different organisations they can be accreddited to such as Association of Pet Dog Trainers (there may be others, but the methods used are the key.)
Gitdog was horrendous when we first started going - I found going to the weekly class motivated me to work with him more between sessions and gave me moral support when he was being an @rse. He's now about to do his gold award - this is less important than all the advice I've had along the way about socialisation, taking him to new places, managing him when he goes over the threshold with excitement etc.
I would suggest talking to a different trainer about the dog and his specific issues to discuss if they are best addressed initially via a 1/1 session or in a carefully managed class. Letting a stressed, anxious or aggressive dog off the lead in a new environment with unfamiliar dogs is just stupidity.

ETA - if you look at the bronze criteria, it's as much about responsible ownership as about the dog, but doesn't specify the training methods.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/21392/gcdsbronze.pdf

MallyGirl

Denene wrote: »

The dog went to a training class last week, and I was hoping to get some thoughts on it. It's for the KC Bronze Award, run by a local group. I've only heard about it second-hand and it seems to contradict a lot of what I've been reading, but I know that there are probably loads of training methods so does this sound okay?

• They emphasised being the dominant person/pack member. I thought this was an outdated/incorrect view?

completely outdated thinking. Dog should look to you for guidance/leadership but not because you are dominant, it should be because you are trusted by the dog.

Denene wrote: »

[*]They physically manipulated dogs (ie. pressing down on their rear to get them to sit

no, you encourage their nose up with a treat which makes the bottom go down. There shouldn't need to be contact to teach sit.

Denene wrote: »

[*]They made all the owners let the dogs off the leash, even those there for the first time. Our dog is aggressive to other dogs, especially those off-leash, so my family member didn't want to do this but the trainer took the lead off them

do not take an aggressive dog to such an environment - someone is going to get hurt (dog or human). The trainer should listen to the dog owner. There will be a reason the dog doesn't like other dogs and that will not be addressed in this class.

Denene wrote: »

[*]They made the dogs roll over by pulling a hand down their leash, and then putting pressure on the collar until their head was forced to the floor

Bad, bad, bad. Alpha rolling was debunked as an approach years ago.

Denene wrote: »

All of this seems to not match up with things I've read about, but they are the experts and I am completely inexperienced, so I assume it's okay?

Is this the best way to train a dog or is it worth looking elsewhere or getting one-on-one training? The dog's owners are split on whether they should keep going, and I've been drafted in as referee

Leave and find a class that uses positive reinforcement.

Denene

Thanks for all the replies! It does sound like it's not the right type of class. Unfortunately I still have to persuade my mum, who thinks it's effective - but it's not really. She couldn't get the dog to sit even with physical contact. Sigh..

The dog is very eager to please generally, and will quite happily sit for me when encouraged with a treat - I've been doing it as you describe MallyGirl - she looks up and the rear naturally goes down. Getting her to stay down is what we need to work on (and many other things!)

We actually phoned the trainer beforehand and said that she was dog-aggressive (?) and did they think we should do one-on-one? But they said it was okay to bring her.

Elsien, I actually read your Good Citizen threads and found them very encouraging - they were what made me suggest a training club that offers the good Good Citizen programme! I will print off that PDF for them, thanks.

elsien

Gitdog encouraging someone? Now there's a first.:rotfl:

bouicca21

Check this out

http://www.apdt.co.uk

Sagz_2

Not sure if the location would suit you, but Dogs Trust use modern, kind, training methods
https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/our-centres/ballymena/centre-updates/blog/training-classes-with-dog-school-northern-ireland

arbrighton

Our classes were all about motivating dog to do it- e.g treat at nose and bring it up, saying sit as bum goes down etc.

Lie down, treat goes down.

Roll over, once lying down, treat by nose going round

etcetc

Denene

bouicca21 and Sagz, thanks for the links. We're in Belfast, so there are several options there that would suit. The problem will be persuading my mum to try them instead. I think she's planning on going back to this place later this week so I need to convince her otherwise!

The motivate-with-treats method was the one I thought was used everywhere these days, but apparently not!