Advice needed to Avoid Cowboy Builders

PICKPOCKET

Hi

Please be careful who you engage, check them out on Companies House, check them out for CCJs, a reliable firm to do this for free is CREDIT SAFE REPORT.

Try and use a credit card to pay as if things do go wrong you can get your money back.

You may think this is over the top but I know someone who lost thousands because they failed to do these simple things. They were not stupid people just too trusting and naive.

Doozergirl

PICKPOCKET wrote: »

Hi

Please be careful who you engage, check them out on Companies House, check them out for CCJs, a reliable firm to do this for free is CREDIT SAFE REPORT.

Try and use a credit card to pay as if things do go wrong you can get your money back.

You may think this is over the top but I know someone who lost thousands because they failed to do these simple things. They were not stupid people just too trusting and naive.

Presumably they didn't pay in stages based on completed work, didn't get a recommendation from people, didn't check three references or visit a previous build.

Builders rarely take credit cards. We talk big numbers that credit limits don't cover. I've said this before, but builders are also extending credit to customers. Trust goes two ways. If they want or need to pay by credit card, it would set alarm bells ringing for me.

bery_451

Doozergirl wrote: »

Presumably they didn't pay in stages based on completed work, didn't get a recommendation from people, didn't check three references or visit a previous build.

Builders rarely take credit cards. We talk big numbers that credit limits don't cover. I've said this before, but builders are also extending credit to customers. Trust goes two ways. If they want or need to pay by credit card, it would set alarm bells ringing for me.

Doozergirl from reading your posts your Implying that all Builders are innocent and it is the customers that are the scammers and are at fault?


If that is the case we would have programs on TV called Cowboy Customers, Rogue Customers etc.


The builder needs to show more trust than the customer. I never heard of a customer scamming £50000 on his/her credit card for a side extension lol.


Customers always are right and always at risk. Simples. Hence customers come on these forums to ask questions and keep asking questions until everything is cleared and clarified to lessen the chances of being a cowboy builder victim.

Doozergirl

bery_451 wrote: »

Doozergirl from reading your posts your Implying that all Builders are innocent and it is the customers that are the scammers and are at fault?


If that is the case we would have programs on TV called Cowboy Customers, Rogue Customers etc.


The builder needs to show more trust than the customer. I never heard of a customer scamming £50000 on his/her credit card for a side extension lol.


Customers always are right and always at risk. Simples. Hence customers come on these forums to ask questions and keep asking questions until everything is cleared and clarified to lessen the chances of being a cowboy builder victim.

Absolute Rubbish. I have implied no such thing. I have told you how to undertake due diligence and have been very clear that the vast majority of builders are honest. I have also pointed out where vested interests and builders without a lot of work might lurk.

TV programs are made for shock and awe. Ironically, my other half was offered a job as the rescue builder on "Cowboy Builders" because we are award winning and he has humour and can string a sentence together, making him good TV. There are good and bad companies in every walk of life but nothing looks quite as exciting on TV as a half built extension. Of course, it is terrible, but at no point have I ever suggested it doesn't exist! Most of those situations could be avoided by following widely given advice, particularly not basing decisions on the cheapest quotations. Good work is not cheap. There are countless examples on those programs of people with *utterly* unrealistic expectations of how much work costs, but those people chose price over everything. Massive alarm bells should have rung from the start - that is exactly where looking at previous work and speaking to previous customers about actual costs and timescales is so important.

I can assure you that bad customers do exist and I have the court papers from previous naivety to prove it. You are ignorant if you think that there aren't clients who blatantly can't afford what they're asking for and don't rip builders off despite agreed pricing, or attempt to bully, intimidate or expect more than is agreed. Oh, and then conveniently blame the builder for being a 'cowboy'.

I have offered you widely accepted advice on how to pick your builder correctly. Your problem is suffering from procrastination.

I pride myself on being able to choose who I work with. That is how things really work. Builders are not supermarkets. You do not get to shop with a builder just because you want them. Good builders get to choose who they work *with*, which is why you have to present yourself as being trustworthy, pragmatic and reasonable. If you don't, you will end up with a builder who doesn't have such high standards.

All about relationships, like I said. You're talking with a local, respected, award winning builder with 11 years of posts on this forum as testimony to their knowledge and changing experience, who provides references and invited people to see their work and you
a) can't see what might have been staring you right in the face
b) tell me what's what

TV and sensationalist newspaper journalism is not reality.

Doozergirl

Good luck getting a double storey side extension from a quality builder for £50k.

Furts

Doozergirl wrote: »

Absolute Rubbish. I have implied no such thing. I have told you how to undertake due diligence and have been very clear that the vast majority of builders are honest. I have also pointed out where vested interests and builders without a lot of work might lurk.

TV programs are made for shock and awe. Ironically, my other half was offered a job as the rescue builder on "Cowboy Builders" because we are award winning and he has humour and can string a sentence together, making him good TV. There are good and bad companies in every walk of life but nothing looks quite as exciting on TV as a half built extension. Of course, it is terrible, but at no point have I ever suggested it doesn't exist! Most of those situations could be avoided by following widely given advice, particularly not basing decisions on the cheapest quotations. Good work is not cheap. There are countless examples on those programs of people with *utterly* unrealistic expectations of how much work costs, but those people chose price over everything. Massive alarm bells should have rung from the start - that is exactly where looking at previous work and speaking to previous customers about actual costs and timescales is so important.

I can assure you that bad customers do exist and I have the court papers from previous naivety to prove it. You are ignorant if you think that there aren't clients who blatantly can't afford what they're asking for and don't rip builders off despite agreed pricing, or attempt to bully, intimidate or expect more than is agreed. Oh, and then conveniently blame the builder for being a 'cowboy'.

I have offered you widely accepted advice on how to pick your builder correctly. Your problem is suffering from procrastination.

I pride myself on being able to choose who I work with. That is how things really work. Builders are not supermarkets. You do not get to shop with a builder just because you want them. Good builders get to choose who they work *with*, which is why you have to present yourself as being trustworthy, pragmatic and reasonable. If you don't, you will end up with a builder who doesn't have such high standards.

All about relationships, like I said. You're talking with a local, respected, award winning builder with 11 years of posts on this forum as testimony to their knowledge and changing experience, who provides references and invited people to see their work and you
a) can't see what might have been staring you right in the face
b) tell me what's what

TV and sensationalist newspaper journalism is not reality.

I said I was out but wanted to add a different angle to this - though the ethos is the same. Approached from a consumer perspective there is an enormous naivety and ignorance which in countless cases is inexcusable. Consumers could not care less about quality, nor care less about technical details and throw out the window any concept of common sense. The warning signs from a builders perspective are:

Seeking the cheapest, simplest, "plans" from the cheapest "designer" and being happy in adopting the attitude "ignorance is bliss" . A simple guide here is how many consumers go into any form of building works (even a replacement kitchen or en suite) with no concept of the difference between Planning and Buildings Regulations and no concept of what the Buildings regulations apply to, or are meant to achieve.

Not applying for Full Plans Buildings Regulations.

Not then applying for all specialist drawings - roof trusses, heating layout, kitchen design, bathroom design...and so on.

Not producing a fully detailed specification. This is vital and should not be confused with what countless people believe is a specification. All too frequently this is just some standardised small notes cut and pasted from somewhere.

Not arranging and working with the building Inspector, nor building up any raport whatsoever with this person.

Not seeking any professional advice whatsoever after the "plans" have gone for Buildings Regulations. Where is the Project Manager/Clerk Of Works/Building Surveyor/ Quantity Surveyor?

Not showing any interest in the work being undertaken. Where have the concepts of "due diligence" , inspection, questioning items, and common sense gone to?

Underlying all this is frequently an overwhelming desire to get things done on the cheap. Any and everything must be the cheapest, and any expenditure on any professional advice and help should be avoided.

Doozergirl has rightly said before if one wishes to avoid a cowboy builder then do not employ one. I have said many times before that cowboy consumers seek cowboy builders - they are a marriage made in heaven. The brutal truth is cowboy builders would not exist if there was not a plentiful supply of cowboy consumers to keep feeding them with money.

To those who think I am being harsh reflect on this. Just like Doozergirl I have been involved with countless consumer issues from the media to television to Government. Doozergirl has posted for 11 years and well done to her. I cannot match this mse record but my consumer friendly campaigning goes back a long, long way.

Nobody knows all the answers, there are always more than one way to answer a problem, but Doozergirl and I do know a little about consumers and builders.

bery_451

Doozergirl wrote: »

Good luck getting a double storey side extension from a quality builder for £50k.

House prices are coming down from the Brexit, In fact you can buy a 2-3 bedroom house up north of England for I am guessing under £20000.


So why should an double story side extension be even £50000 or even more than that? Has prices of raw materials of bricks, blocks, cement gone up recently? Or is it the location of these raw materials that determines the price, for example a brick in London is more expensive than a brick in Birmingham?


An extension project like this should be finished and completed within 3 months.


What is the average wage per hour of a brick layer?


My neighbour across the road done a double story side extension 8-9 years ago including everything except fittings like toilets, sinks etc. for £24000. I assumed the builder hired immigrant workers hence the cheap price and I also assume the builder was not VAT registered nor had public liability insurance. I was under the assumption that if builder has 2 of these documents then its double the price to £40000-£50000.


Has prices of extensions gone up in price since 10 years ago?


Can you please explain how my neighbours extension has passed building control stages inspection by the inspector?


Cant get hold of my neighbours builders as its been a long time.


Please correct anything I said that you believe is wrong.

Doozergirl

House prices and the price of building materials and labour are not related. Everyone knows that. Houses in the north of England are often worth less than they cost to build, but you won't be finding many for £20k. Houses in London cost a fraction of their value to build. People in the Midlands need to be sure that the work they carry out will pay off against the value of their home.

And you think extensions are just built by brick layers on an hourly rate? How on earth do you know how long it takes to build a two storey extension when you don't even know a builder?

Of course the price of everything has gone up in the last 10 years. Materials come mainly from outside our country. Unless you've been living under a rock you should know that the pound has tanked and imports are more expensive in only the last month, even.

You've also basically admitted that your neighbour used a cowboy that avoids tax and employs cheap labour and then go on to say that you can't get hold of him as if you wanted to use him! What is the purpose of this thread?

Everything Furts says about cowboy customers applies to you. You assume everything and know nothing, I'm afraid.

£24,000 less VAT is £20,000. If an extension costs that and takes 3 months or 13 weeks, that leaves a budget of £1,538 per week in expenditure. That doesn't even buy you two men for a week, let alone any materials, professionals or indeed, enough men to carry out the work. You tell me how your neighbour did it!

Enough now.

Francesanne

Hi,
I've used this site https://www.buywithconfidence.gov.uk/to find builder & double glazing firm and have been very pleased with people we've chosen. I've opted for companies with good reviews. Hope it might be helpful.

docmatt

Hi Bery, I live in Sutton Coldfield and have used a builder do a large extension on my house 4 years ago, he has since done 2 friends of mine and is doing a relative of theirs in Solihull.

He isn't in any associations or anything, he will just price it up and show you pictures from his photo album and letters his customers have wrote to him.

Rather than advertise on here drop me a PM and I'll give you his number.

Not wanting to be rude but if you the kind of person that gets 23 quotes and goes for the cheapest I'd prefer not to give you his number. He won't be the cheapest.

EDIT, I've just read all the comments and I'd prefer not to give you his number, sorry LOL