Urgent Help with multiple PCNs!!

Joseph123

Hello all

I have received multiple PCNs (x4 ) for my vehicle being parked in a health centre outside of its opening hours.The parking company is UKCPS. I sent them a slightly altered version of the template appeal letter for IPC members but they have sent letters saying it is 'TOO LATE' for 3 and 'REJECTED' for one.

The car park was pretty much abandoned and on every occasion the vehicle was parked outside of the working hours of the health centre. It also does not operate as a commercial car park. The bays are marked with 'patient' etc which would lead one to assume that the car park operates during the working hours of the medical centre. The vehicle was also parked at night on all occasions so the argument of small signs that were unlit and not clearly visible would apply.

I put my hands up to the fact I have stupidly left this longer than I should have hoping the parking company would leave it eventually - but after reading through the Newbies forum I see that was a mistake. my only defence is that I moved to a temporary address at the end of 2015 and so have only been collecting post intermittently from my permanent address.

I have attached all the letters for one of the PCNs (they are all identical) and both the 'too late' and 'rejected' letters

please any help would be much appreciated! any advice on what to do next?

http://

i1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg565/parkingproblems123/2114751%20-%20NTK_zpsiumvki7e.jpg

i1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg565/parkingproblems123/2114751%20-%20notification_zpsjxzaaee1.jpg

i1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg565/parkingproblems123/2114751%20-%20final%20notice_zps1dhm5bqr.jpg

i1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg565/parkingproblems123/2114751%20-%20letter%20before%20court%20claim_zpszebi1leo.jpg

Too late letter -
i1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg565/parkingproblems123/2114751%20-%20LATE_zpsdyqphflp.jpg

Rejected letter - i1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg565/parkingproblems123/21030107%20-%20REJECTED_zpsad9nrg5a.jpg

Joseph123

This is the letter I sent them -

Dear UKCPS,

Re PCN numbers
• 212343 (24/03/2016 @ 21.30) Newlands Health Center
• 2114751 (25/03/2016 @ 19.40) Newlands Health Center
• 2115830 (26/04/2016 @19.04) Newlands Health Center
• 21030107 (22/05/2016 @ 21.45) Newlands Health Center

I am not ignoring your charge for a purported parking infraction. As this is purely a charge, issued under an alleged contract and the driver has not been identified, I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

1. Who is the party that contracted with your company? I require their contact details.
2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
3. As you are not the landowner please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that you have their authority.
4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract please provide your justification of this sum.
6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? Answer yes or no.
7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please provide a valid VAT invoice for this 'service'.
8. Please provide a copy of the signs that you can evidence were on site and which you contend formed a contract with the driver on that occasion, as well as all photographs taken of this vehicle. The car park in question is clearly not appropriately sign posted.

If you believe you have a cause of action, send a Letter before Claim within the next 21 days and I will take advice and will respond.

However, in my opinion, there is a better alternative than legal proceedings, namely that we utilise the services of a completely independent ADR service suited to parking charges. This does not include the IAS appeal service - which lacks any transparency and possibly any independence from the IPC - unlike the alternative offered by the British Parking Association, POPLA, which is transparent and has been shown to be independent. Having checked on the BPA website I do not see UKCPS as a registered AOS member. Please could you confirm if UKCPS is a BPA member as I feel that if this is not the case it is very misleading and dishonest to use the BPA logo on your letters.

The vehicle was allegedly parked outside of the operating hours of Newlands Health Center on all occasions and therefore outside of times when the car park would be in use to parties using the health center. The fact that some bays are marked with signs such as ‘patient’ would indicate that the car park is only in use during the opening times of Newlands Health Center.
In addition the vehicle was parked at night and in the dark and it is unreasonable to expect that the small and unlit parking signs could be visible. The alleged offence amounts to parking in a deserted car park for a short period outside normal office working hours. My car did not cause any loss to the owners or occupiers of the building.

Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs or surcharges. I will not respond to such contact and to involve another firm would be a failure to mitigate your costs which are not my liability because the POFA 2012 can only potentially hold a registered keeper liable if certain provisions have been met and even then, the 'amount of the parking charge' is the only amount pursuable.
I would advise UKCPS also to stop wasting large volumes of paper and sending excessive post. The company may like to consider moving forward with society and operating an online appeals process as is the norm for the majority of similar companies in the present day. I welcome email correspondence.

Yours faithfully,

Redx

nothing you can do about them

they have 6 years to try a court case in civil court, called MCOL

if you get actual court papers from Northampton, that is when you need help

if you dont have permission to park there, it was trespassing, but UKCPS are likely to try a court claim for these multiple invoices

Joseph123

is this likely to go to court? and if it did do those of you who understand the ins and outs of it think I would have much chance?

Redx

they try up to a thousand court claims a year, so as these are multiple pcn,s and the vehicle was parked outside of normal hours I think they are likely to try a court case

if they can prove they have a valid claim to a judge then they will win and will obtain a judgment against you

they have to prove

locus standii
adequate signage
that you are the driver OR they adhered to POFA2012
they followed the IPC CoP
and any other legal issues that may be argued

so if they can fulfil any of the above criteria , they would win

you would dispute any court case on the above criteria too, trying to convince a judge that you are not liable for these invoices

nobody can advise you if you would win or lose, only a fool would try

court is a lottery , Beavis thought he would win and lost 3 times and had to pay the judgment , for one invoice for one day, whereas you have multiple invoices over a period of days , so not a "one off"

unless you can successfully challenge their legal case, you would lose

do tha maths , think about how you would go about doing the above, read ongoing court cases

even a solicitor could not tell you the odds, never mind the members on here

fisherjim

"The car park was pretty much abandoned and on every occasion the vehicle was parked outside of the working hours of the health centre. It also does not operate as a commercial car park. The bays are marked with 'patient' etc which would lead one to assume that the car park operates during the working hours of the medical centre"

Unfortunatelyyou fall into the category of motorist that wants to make up their own rules of parking on private land. To a certain degree ten years ago this could work, but in this day and age you are the icing on the cake to greedy, scamming, scum PPC's.

I would follow Redx' advice and start weighing up your options when the inevitable letters from Northamton start turning up.

Herzlos

In any case, whether they should have parked there or not, it doesn't justify an unrelated private company demanding money.

Lots of people park in unused areas outside of opening times without causing any issues. Anyone with a real need to stop such a thing is capable of dropping a barrier across.

Most likely, this is a company who has been brought in to solve a fictional issue regarding parking during opening hours, who is taking advantage of the fishing license to catch out people well beyond their remit.

Beyond that, there's signage - do they make it clear that the parking is not to be used out of hours? Does it just say something like "Patients only"? and how do they define patients? If you visited previously, are you still a patient?
Is the signage clear enough to form a contract? Does it adhere to the Code of Practice and highways regulations?
Is the sign offering parking for a fee, or are they trying to pursue for a breach for doing something prohibited?

Then do UKCPS have the authority to actually pursue a claim in court? Is it actually a trespass case (by doing something forbidden in he contract)?

Have UKCPS complied with the Protection Of Freedom Act 2012, allowing them to hold the keeper liable?

Of course, court is not without risk. You stand a good chance of beating them, but who knows what'll happen on the day.

Half_way

If it's a so called, contract is it a forbidding one?
ie, you are not allowed to do this, otherwise you agree to pay x?

The_Deep

There may also be v.a.t. irregularities in the paperwork. If they claim that this is contractual charge, it is a fee for parking, and thus vatable. Have they accounted for vat on their paper work?

Ask them for a vat invoice. If they ignore your request, (which they probably will), it is a useful stick with which to beat them if it ever gets to court.

More reading here

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5033796=

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5195437

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5087925=

If you suspect tax evasion report it to the fraud hot line here

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5087925&highlight

HO87

Knowing what the signs actually said is probably of greater import that being able to look at the PCN letters.

Joseph123

Okay so I will write to UKCPS and ask for a VAT invoice. Also do they have to share any evidence they have, for example pictures of the vehicle? As I haven't seen any

I will also write to the landowner and try to agree a settlement if you guys think that that's a good idea?

Will go back to the car park and take some pictures of the signs, they seem to be of most importance

Really appreciate all your help guys!