ParkingEye Weymouth Old Town PCN missing detail?

Stonedhouse

Hi

Out of the blue I've just received a PCN through the post from Parking Eye for Weymouth Old Town East which, to me, is not clear.

I'm not disputing any of the details they actually provide as yes the car was parked there between the times stated (totalling 3 hours 21 mins) but it does not clarify why they are specifically trying to charge £100 (reduced to £60)

They absolutely definitely paid for parking and are meticulous about parking and use all available phone apps or cash payments etc as we visit and park in Dorset many many times but for the life of me we cannot remember how much we paid for this particular session and we can't find the ticket as we don't usually keep them - we've never had a problem before as we are usually very careful.

......anyhow Parking Eye are not helping as all the PCN is giving me (aside from location, dates etc) is a time in, time out (with photos) and a total time but it does not clarify at all whether I never paid in the first place or if we just overran and if so by how much. It gives me nothing apart from saying "By either not purchasing the appropriate parking time or by remaining at the car park for longer than permitted....the charge is now payable". We need to know what we did wrong !!!!

If we have messed up then we don't mind paying something (but £60 is a rip off which I will try and fight) but should they have stated whether we either failed to pay at all or if we over ran and if so by how much? I'm 90% sure the ticket machine was one where you enter your reg so should their system not log how much we paid and when we paid?

I've checked against the POFA paragraphs 8 etc and that seems to infer the PCN should show more detail but it is not totally clear - it would be greatly appreciated if someone could just clarify.

I have not responded to Parking Eye yet but will - however it would be handy to know whether I just contact them to ask for clarification or, preferably, with knowledge that they should have given more detail then I will happily go straight in with some of the legal suggestions on this forum. It just strikes me as odd that they have missed out what I feel is such a fundamentally required piece of information - but surely they would know better than that.

Any help and advice gratefully appreciated.

R

Coupon-mad

Firstly, does the PCN have the paragraph near the bottom warning about 'keeper liability' after 28/29 days, under the POFA? Yes or no?

And what is the date of the parking event and what is the 'date issued' on the PCN?

What date did you actually receive it?

It just strikes me as odd that they have missed out what I feel is such a fundamentally required piece of information - but surely they would know better than that.

We agree - but PE hav always used this template and either/or' which has been raised in POPLA appeals for a couple of years as misleading and not complying with the POFA para 9. But POPLA have never accepted that and POPLA will say they 'are satisfied' that PE's PCNs are complaint with the POFA. We disagree but it's never been tested in court and you'd need a sharp Judge to spot how vital such info is and to decide the template is ambiguous (at best).

So, you are right the PCN is unhelpful rubbish but it doesn't help your appeal.

You will not be able to find out which of these two scenarios apply until POPLA stage - unfair I know but this is the position:

(a) it is possible you paid in full but made a typo with the VRN.

(b) I think it's more likely you paid for 3 hours and PE have not allowed a fair grace period at the start (after arrival, before paying at the machine) and at the end of the paid-for time.

So I suspect they are accusing you of 'overstaying' by 21 minutes. Even though there are meant to be two grace periods! But you are right their standard wording never tells you, it is a template letter that says 'either/or'. And at POPLA stage people finally find out what PE's case actually is...terrible isn't it?

Do not rush out an online appeal that drops you in it by saying who was driving! Please read the NEWBIES FAQs, that's why a template 'one size fits all' BPA member appeal is there, to stop people blabbing about who parked.

Most important not to imply who was driving, if the dates don't stack up so please answer my first queries above.

Stonedhouse

Hi,

Thanks for the quick reply.

Yes there is the paragraph at the bottom re "if after 29 days.......POFA etc"

The parking date was the 10/7 and the issue date was 15/7 and it arrived through the post on 21/7.

Yes I am starting to think we only paid for 3 hours... but I honestly don't know - and that's why I'm so frustrated that someone is trying to sting me and I just need to understand why so I can accept it more. I don't mind paying a small penalty if we overstayed as they do need to deter that... but not £60. There should be some distinction between people who accidentally overstay and those who just don't bother IMHO.

Thanks for your help though - I shall certainly follow any relevant guidance on the forum. For what it is worth I will write to Weymouth Council telling them I am now boycotting the area - I genuinely will. I keep a static van over in Wareham for the last 10 years and during our regular visits we usually pop along to Weymouth to shop in the town but it is no skin of my nose to go and find other places to go now. The council admits it stinks and I am going to remind them it does.

Coupon-mad

OK, so send the template appeal from the NEWBIES thread (not by letter, but online using the 'ParkingEye contact' page). And you could also at the same time, send them an email and ask - without saying who was driving - whether the PCN is alleging no payment at all or just 3 hours, or a typo with the VRN, or what:

info@parkingeye.co.uk

Put the PCN number xxxxxx/xxxxxx in the subject line. Remember NOT to appeal that way, this is just a way of asking an extra question.

Cases can still be won at POPLA once the rejection letter arrives. All is not lost, it is £100 or nothing (not £60) and plenty of cases are won.

Stonedhouse

Thank you so much again.

I've read a read through the newbies thread and if I have understood it correctly I need to send the text I have copied out below - once I have added the PCN ref and the keepers (me) name and address etc. - and it is to be sent using Parking Eyes contact page.

Do I just copy / paste (and add the specific detail) or, if it helps do I reword it slightly (but maintain the important element) so that they see I am not just taking the easy route of a copy/paste exercise - then I'm more than happy to expand on your helpful template.

I will also send a separate email asking for the detail of the basis of the charge. As a business man myself it is a standard professional business expectation that any invoicing for additional charges need to be carefully detailed - otherwise any professional diligent company will just not approve it for payment and are likely to return the invoice requesting clarity. I feel inclined to complain about them incurring my time and efforts in getting this clarification in order for me to consider my next action - and maybe to point out I would be more than happy to continue on our ongoing business contract by basing charges back to them for my administration time on an equivalent costing rate to how they appear to have worked out how much additional costs to charge me for what is obviously some minor administration work on their behalf so far.

This is probably a common reaction to this scenario but as it is how I feel do you think it would help to include the above argument- not only on the separate email but also to include it within the first stage of the appeal letter below ?

Grateful thanks.

R

Date


Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car and I will complain to the landowner about the matter if it is not cancelled.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers before they park.

Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. I believe the driver may well be eligible for cancellation and you have omitted clear information about the process for complaints including a geographical address of the landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,

Coupon-mad

if it helps do I reword it slightly (but maintain the important element) so that they see I am not just taking the easy route of a copy/paste exercise - then I'm more than happy to expand on your helpful template.

Yes, reword it by all means, expand on it. The template is for people who can't think what to write and would otherwise drop themselves in it as 'driver' - which seems to be a high % of the population - but doesn't sound like you!

This is probably a common reaction to this scenario but as it is how I feel do you think it would help to include the above argument- not only on the separate email but also to include it within the first stage of the appeal letter below ?

Yes why not. TBH you can write anything you like as long as the driver isn't divulged because a keeper appellant is in a slightly stronger position.

Stonedhouse

Thank you again. Well I have typed up below and will send shortly - unless you have any recommended corrections.

Cheers


Dear Sir / Madam

Re : PCN No. xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

As keeper of the car involved I challenge this PCN and will complain to the landowner and also to Weymouth Council in the most strenuous terms about this matter if it is not cancelled.

Firstly my understanding is that ParkingEye do not own the car park yet you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on-site businesses to cancel such a charge. Therefore please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. I believe the driver may well be eligible for cancellation and you have omitted clear information about the process for complaints including a geographical address of the landowner.

I also understand that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver or occupants, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers before they park.

Furthermore your “invoice” is lacking the necessary detail for me, the keeper, to properly consider options and actions as it gives absolutely no specific detail as to the basis of the supposed action that has incurred additional, substantial charges - it merely gives options as to what might have happened (“...By either not purchasing the appropriate parking time or by remaining at the car park for longer than permitted……”) The aforementioned claims indicate two entirely different scenarios and as a professional diligent party trying to work out what has gone on in order to consider the most appropriate course of action your paperwork is not business worthy, especially important is that no detail has been given at all of any financial transaction that has already taken place by the driver under this implied contract.

As keeper of the vehicle this is taking up a lot more of my time than it should and I am considering invoicing ParkingEye back for my administration time. Seeing as ParkingEye feel it appropriate for a small amount of administration and loss on their behalf to levy such a high charge I am sure you will not have any objection to me using the same charging basis for calculating my incurred costs in order to invoice ParkingEye accordingly.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,

Stonedhouse

Hi again,

Well the above initial appeal to the PCN was submitted to Parking Eye via their site on 28th July (nearly a month ago) and although I received an instant acknowledgement of the appeal at the time stating that "a written response may take up to 14 days" I have received nothing at all.

I'm just checking - Is there a time limit to when I should hear from them? Or is there something further I should do in the meantime?

Many thanks.

iamarealjediknight

Hello

My wife recently parked in the same car park (Weymouth Old Town East) and received a PCN yesterday (30/8) and it was issued on 24/8 - this allows only 7 days in which to make the so-called discounted payment of £60. I guess that if an appeal is lodged then she will lose the right to a discounted payment. That aside, my wife keeps all of her parking tickets so she has the one for the date in question. The PCN states that she entered the car park at 16:04:22 hrs and left the car park at 17:15:35 hrs. Her ticket show that she paid £1.20 for one hours parking at 16:07 meaning that she would have to leave the parking bay by 17:07. She was no more than 5 minutes late in driving out of the parking bay (she had to take our 4 year old daughter to the toilet. Clearly (and it is not disputed) that she exited the car park site at 17:15 hrs. This therefore means that she had remained on the car parking site only seven minutes beyond the period for which she paid. It is my understanding that the Government introduced legislation requiring private car parking companies (as well as councils etc) to give 10 minutes grace with regard to overstaying the paid for period. On this basis, the parking charge issued in this case is not valid. I also presume that Parking Eye are entirely inaccurate in implying that my wife overstayed by 11 minutes - yes, she DROVE IN at 16:04 and DEPARTED at 17:15 , but surely one only pays for the period during which one is stationary in a parking bay - is this not when the contract between the driver and the car parking company begins and does it not end when the driver leaves the parking bay? One could be driving around a car park for several minutes waiting for a space to become available (especially in a seaside town like weymouth in the summer) - do these companies expect us to pay for the time driving around their car parks too! (sorry to rant). It would be a bit like issuing a parking ticket to someone for 'driving' or even in stationary traffic along a road with double yellow lines...

Any advice gratefully received

Umkomaas

Any advice gratefully received

Yes, 3 points.

1. Please read the newbies FAQ sticky, near the top of the thread list, one page back from here. It is the most comprehensive online advice available. It is comprehensive and will lead you through the whole process you now face. Posts #1 and #2 are all you need initially.

2. Please don't post on another poster's thread, it relates only to their situation, and while there may be similarities to your case, there will also be differences. This is where advice can become confused, potentially being costly for you, or the original poster - or both of you. If necessary, after reading the sticky, please start a new thread of your own.

3. Please use the 'Return' key on your keypad more often when posting. No one is going to try to read a wall of text such as that you have just posted.

Stonedhouse

I've now received an "unsuccessful appeal" and POPLA ref from Parking Eye.

All they say is that "Insufficient time was paid for on the date of the parking event" but no confirmation of how much was actually paid or underpaid..... which is of little help. At least if they are going to sting us of a fair proportion of a weekly wage we should at least like to know the actual discrepancy we are meant to have made.

I'll draft up a POPLA appeal but have to admit I'm loosing the will to fight and am thinking about saving myself £40 by paying the discounted rate (£60) offered whilst I still can (discount period ends this Friday). I hate to feel like giving in - there is so much advice and support from this forum, especially from Coupon Mad who is obviously a major asset to this place - but there is just so much going on in my life right now which I don't want to go in to and to be honest do I really have a leg to stand on if we did genuinely underpay? We just didn't realise how these ANPR systems work, we didn't even notice the cameras and when we got back to the car having been held up slightly in town and we saw there was no ticket on the car we assumed all was ok. Now the "Purchase additional time" sign show at the bottom of this photo makes sense..... but we did not twig at the time.

//i120.photobucket.com/albums/o183/stakka_album/Parking%20Eye_zps5kej1caf.jpg
Sorry it won't let me post the link if someone could please oblige

Bearing in mind the wording of the sign (which someone looks to have had a go at knocking over!) could anyone kindly give a rough guess at my chance of POPLA appeal etc?