NTK letter arrived later than 15days but how do I prove it?

Coupon-mad

Guys Dad and I suggested you get rid of other 'stuff' about 'no keeper liability' and only have the clear point about dates in that point #1, so delete this because no POPLA case is won on 'no period of parking' anyway:

• Contrary to the requirements of Sch.4 Para 9 (2) (a), the Notice to Keeper did not specify the period of parking to which the notice relates. It merely stated the times which the vehicle entered and exited the car park; these times do not equate to the start and end of the period of parking.

And I've got it, your evidence - the signs are here:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/picture-of-week-abersoch-beach-car-park.html

Planning Application mentioned in the Prankster's Blog

HTH, use those pictures and the planning application to illustrate your section about the signs. Be brutal and assertive with your words!

Coupon-mad

POFA deems delivery to be Monday 14th June

No it doesn't, already explained above. Details MUST be right as you are talking about one day late here.

lj_dean

Thank you for the images. I will try to construct something honest and brutal this evening.

Sorry about the date confusion.

Notice must be given within 14 day period = Monday 13th June (POFA Para 9 (5))
POFA deems delivery of PCN 2 working days after 10th June = Tuesday 14th June. (POFA Para 9 (6))

Dublindel

Just to link up with some timings. I received a NTK and that was also took 19 days. PE don't care about the Law, the BPA Co or POFA, they think tthey are the law. When I informed them of this breach, they blamed it on the post office which is irrelevant. But looking at this from the other side, if you send them a letter then you can use the same rule in Schedule 4 as they use, ie- it is deemed to have been delivered after 2 days.

From the similarities in timings on delivery I suspect the following. PE have 5 out trays in the office. Mon to Fri. The letter written on Monday goes into the Friday tray and so on. This delays delivery and squeezes the time you have to respond prompting a payment. In my case they are also nearly up on the 35 day response time and have not given me an extension date as required in 22.8 of the BPA Cop. Will let you know.

Coupon-mad

lj_dean wrote: »

Thank you for the images. I will try to construct something honest and brutal this evening.

Sorry about the date confusion.

Notice must be given within 14 day period = Monday 13th June (POFA Para 9 (5))
POFA deems delivery of PCN 2 working days after 10th June = Tuesday 14th June. (POFA Para 9 (6))

Yep that's right - and you can then tell POPLA that in fact it arrived later than that but even if it hadn't, the dates mean it was, ipso facto, 'issued' too late to meet the POFA. Not a matter of proving when it arrived - the law says they were too late by one day even going by the so-called 'issued date' (which we know is NEVER the posted date, with PE).

So this needs spelling out concisely and clearly to a POPLA Assessor who won't get it unless it is spoon-fed, IMHO. They really haven't shown themselves to be on top of it.

bod1467

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but for postal matters the Saturday is a "working" (delivery) day. (It is here - we get postal deliveries on a Saturday). Thus if the NtK was posted on Friday 10th, then the 1st "working" day would be Saturday 11th and the 2nd "working" day would be Monday 13th not Tuesday 14th. (Unless I've misinterpreted the definition of "working" day).

nigelbb

bod1467 wrote: »

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but for postal matters the Saturday is a "working" (delivery) day. (It is here - we get postal deliveries on a Saturday). Thus if the NtK was posted on Friday 10th, then the 1st "working" day would be Saturday 11th and the 2nd "working" day would be Monday 13th not Tuesday 14th. (Unless I've misinterpreted the definition of "working" day).

Saturday is NOT a working day according to POFA 2012 & that's the important thing.

A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.

BTW The Interpretations Act which covers service of court documents specifies Monday-Friday as working days & delivery times of 2 days for First Class & 4 days for Second Class & without proof of First Class post documents are deemed to have been sent Second Class. It's unfortunate that POFA doesn't explicitly call out these differences especially when PPCs don't use Royal Mail but use 3rd Party Snail Mail providers like UK Mail who take 5-7 days to deliver.

1. Under S7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 service by post is deemed to have been effected, unless the contrary has been proved, at the time when the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

2. To avoid uncertainty as to the date of service it will be taken (subject to proof to the contrary) that delivery in the ordinary course of post was effected:-

(a) in the case of first class mail, on the second working day after posting;

(b) in the case of second class mail, on the fourth working day after posting.

3. "Working days" are Monday to Friday, excluding any bank holiday.

4. Affidavits of service shall state whether the document was dispatched by first or second class mail. If this information is omitted it will be assumed that second class mail was used.

bod1467

Cheers mate. That covers things nicely. (And was why I made my post - I knew C_m would be right but felt it was important for it to be spelled out in this thread WHY she was right).

Castle

bod1467 wrote: »

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but for postal matters the Saturday is a "working" (delivery) day. (It is here - we get postal deliveries on a Saturday). Thus if the NtK was posted on Friday 10th, then the 1st "working" day would be Saturday 11th and the 2nd "working" day would be Monday 13th not Tuesday 14th. (Unless I've misinterpreted the definition of "working" day).

POFA, (as per paragraph 8(6)), excludes Saturday, Sunday and Public Holidays from the definition of working days.

The deadline for the NTK to comply with the POFA would be Sunday 12th June.

nigelbb

Castle wrote: »

POFA, (as per paragraph 8(6)), excludes Saturday, Sunday and Public Holidays from the definition of working days.

The deadline for the NTK to comply with the POFA would be Sunday 12th June.

Here are a couple of worked examples:-

Firstly the OP's case
Friday 10th June - NTK posted
Saturday 11th June - Non-working day
Sunday 12th June - Non-working day
Monday 13th June - First working day
Tuesday 14th June - Second working day & NTK deemed delivered but is 2 days late

Secondly we saw some great instances last Xmas when Xmas Day & Boxing Day Bank Holidays were either side of a weekend so that 2 working days stretched to almost a whole week of calendar days.

Thursday 24th December - NTK posted
Friday 25th December - Non-working day
Saturday 26th December - Non-working day
Sunday 27th December - Non-working day
Monday 28th December - Non-working day
Monday 29th December - First working day
Tuesday 30th December - Second working day & NTK deemed delivered 6 days after posting