Secondary Smoke Damage

didnof

Hi - I've had a look at the forum titles and I'm unclear if I've chosen the incorrect subthread, so apologies if I have but this felt the closest match.



Currently I rent out a small flat that is the upstairs of a converted council house. I lived there myself previously and the tenant downstairs has a flat through the local social housing provider and has serious mental issues to the point and has threatened previous tenants with knives, tried to smash down their door with a sledgehammer and countless other worrying episodes.



Last night he decided to try and kill himself by dropping a match into a can of petrol. There was a large explosion and his flat suffered considerable damage, but luckily the individual suffered superficial injuries.



My tenant called to explain what happened and also advised of the considerable smoke damage done to his own flat, walls, belongings etc. I haven’t looked into it yet, but would I be correct in thinking that the damage would be covered by the insurance of the housing provider?



Many thanks.

davidmcn

Probably only to the extent that you can prove their negligence, which seems doubtful. Their tenant would of course be liable but I would guess not much point pursuing them.

Presumably you have insurance which will cover damage to the flat itself? Whether or not your tenant has insurance for their belongings is up to them.

didnof

hi and thanks for your reply. I do have building insurance of course, however I haven't gone through the details of what it covers and what it doesn't yet.


I've just spoken to the housing authority and they indicated they thought it would be my own insurance. Its very frustrating as around 3 years ago he made serious threats to the then tenant and I highlighted how mentally unstable he was and here is a copy and paste from my email to them:


"However, the above pale into insignificance with what has happened today. We received a call from L who told us that P tried to smash their front door down and they hid fearfully in the flat, then, when they plucked up the courage to leave the flat he was stood with a knife waiting for them. Our tenants ran back inside and L burst into tears at what has just happened. HOW MANY WARNINGS MUST WE GIVE YOU UNTIL YOU TAKE ACTION??? We have sent you countless emails and nothing has happened. We have expressed our concern about him and his state of mind time and time again but he is still there and getting worse and worse. If anything happens to our tenants or anybody else xxx Housing Assoc will ultimately be responsible as you can have been warned his situation time and time again.


P has to be removed from the flat immediately IMEDIATELY as he is a danger to himself but more importantly a danger to our tenants and anyone living in his vicinity. They are in fear of their lives and it has gone beyond the point of him breaking your tenancy agreement, this is now a police matter and the least you can do is remove him ASAP. Our tenants have been in touch with the police and they will have the various logs etc for your information."


In a sense they have been negligent as they have failed in their duty of care to both the tenant and my own tenant, however I fear that trying to prove my point will be very difficult indeed.

martindow

What a mess. I can't imagine your tenants are going to risk staying there much longer. Are you comfortable renting out this flat knowing what the man downstairs is capable of doing?

TBagpuss

I think your best bet is to go via your own insurers. They can take a view on whether they feel there are grounds to pursue the landlord of the other flat.
I am not convinced that you would succeeed in arguing that they were negligent. It sounds as though they were on notice that their tenant might cause problems by being agressive or anti-social but not necessarily that he might cause problems through aroson / property damage.

You also don't know what steps the council took following your e-mails. They would no necessarily be able to tell you if he was given warnings.

Obviouy what you and, more importnately, your tenants, can now do is contact the police nad the landlord to find out whether he will now be evicted, it seems likely that setting the place on fire would be a breach of the tenancy agreement.

didnof

Thanks for the patronising response Martin.


Surely the responsibility lies on the authorities to give this individual the attention and medical care he needs in the appropriate establishment rather than point the finger at me?


That flat was in negative equity, I was unable to sell it, what am I supposed to do, leave it empty for years on end? If tenants asked about the neighbours I responded truthfully about him.

silvercar

Please remove the names of the individuals concerned.

[Deleted User]

Problem is, you are approaching the HA.., if they evict him on mental health grounds (which means he is a vulnerable person) they will have problems. You could go to the CAB or a solicitor to see if there are avenues you can pursue like an ASBO (get the police to pursue rather).

You or they can call in the mental health team but unless he is sectionable, they are powerless. It doesn't seem that this has happened yet. I'm surprised the police hasn't done more (particularly after the knife incident - how come?) I believe they can have his mental health investigated.

But I am afraid the HA aren't responsible for his mental health. That's why you are getting no where.

I'd consider selling the place after its been refurbished. But you will probably have to declare the neighbour problems.

Penelope_Penguin

silvercar wrote: »

Please remove the names of the individuals concerned.

OP - you might just want to look again at post 3; some names are removed, but others are still there - I count 2.

didnof

Dean, I've spoken to the housing authority and they have spoken to the county council to state that they no longer wish him to remain in the residence, although they didn't elaborate what would happen with him.


The original incident from 3 years ago resulted in him getting an ASBO, and he also had an injunction placed against him which he broke but with no ramifications. This injunction was as a result of a court appearance which was directly related to the knife incident.


He's as good a case for being sectioned as any individual I have ever met, he's schizophrenic, autistic and manic depressive, how he is allowed to lead a life unsupervised is totally beyond me. Three years ago there was an incident of a mental patient in Birmingham stabbing someone who had slipped under the authorities net (at the same time as the knife incident), and I warned them they had another potential case on their hands, and to some extent this has been proven correct.

martindow

didnof wrote: »

Thanks for the patronising response Martin..

I'm sorry you found it patronising - it certainly wasn't meant that way.

I was trying to say that it is a mess for everyone involved.

The man downstairs is clearly in need of help but unfortunately in patient psychiatric beds are few and far between and even serious cases are often not admitted. You would hope that self immolation was sufficient to section someone, but who knows.

Your tenants, after this experience, I imagine would like to be out as soon as they can. It must have been a terrifying experience and I'm sure they would not want to continue living above this man. Maybe they are forced out already due to the damage?

For you the damage will be hopefully covered by insurance (yours by the sound of it) and could affect future premiums.

My final sentence was about how I would feel if I were you. If your current tenants leave could you let it out again if the man remains in the flat downstairs? I'm not sure if I could sleep at night knowing what had happened and what may happen.

It's an awful situation for all of you..