Help with enforceable agreement

MerryMavis

Hi
I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice on this please.
Out of the blue, in September 2008, I received a default notice for an amount supposedly still outstanding on an RBS credit card which had expired some four years previously. I was very shocked to receive this as I had settled all my loans etc when I sold my house in 2004 in order to start a small business. Naturally I contacted them immediately and thereafter ensued a lengthy and exhausting correspondence during which a number of errors in their processing came to light. At one point I did ask them for a copy of the original agreement and they eventually sent a 5 page document. This document contains nothing personal to me whatsoever, not even a name or address. it is simply a copy of terms and conditions. When I queried this they said it was all that was required to comply with my request. Is that correct? I was eventually worn out by the disconnected and frustrating communications and reluctantly agreed to make token payments of £1 per month, as they assured me that this would prevent the involvement of 3rd party debt collectors. I have continued to do this ever since but now they have suddenly sent a letter saying they have 'partnered' with a company called Westcot who will be managing this from now on. I have never accepted liability for the amount they claim, it has never appeared on my credit history (I have a very good credit rating) and I am really worried about it. Is there any advice which you could give? Many thanks.

Arleen

The moment you've made a payment on the debt you've accepted that you owe the money, sadly "I got tired of dealing with them" is not a valid reason even though many people here can attest how frustrating this can be.

You can still demand for them to prove the debt and if you are certain that you don't owe the money then just make sure they have your current address and inform them that they will have to go to court to get any money from you. As I've mentioned you may or may not have a case there, depends what paperwork they can come up with if they decide to go to court. You could also at this point get financial ombudsman involved.
It's worth mentioning that right now the only thing they can do to you is to go to court get a CCJ against you. They cannot report the account with CRAs as it's past the 6 years cutoff, but as you've paid on the debt - it will not become statute barred and thus they can act on it. In case they get a CCJ against you on it, and you won't pay it within 30 days, this will however show up on your credit file for 6 years from issue date.

Just as a note printout of T&C is not a proof of debt, it must show that you are responsible for some specific debt, like the agreement you've signed or application you've made.

MerryMavis

Thank you so much for your reply. There was so much confusion around this and I have copies of all the correspondence which took place between 2008 & 2011, it is several hundred pages! In one of the letters they have said that they did not issue a default for over 4 years due to an 'oversight' and that they normally issued one when a payment plan was set up. I replied that no payment plan had ever been set up and as far as I was concerned the account had been closed with a zero balance years ago. I asked if they would provide details of the payment plani that was supposed to exist, but they replied saying, amongst other things, that they did not 'consider it necessary to meet the unreasonable request' I had made. Every time I have written to them saying how worried I was by the situation they just said no further action would be taken so long as I kept making the £1 payment. They are still taking it, but have passed it to this Westcot company, who I understand to be very aggressive in their tactics. Really worried about it and don't know what to do.

MerryMavis

It says Terms & Conditions at the top. Underneath it says 'This is a copy of your agreement for you to keep'. But there is nothing at all that relates it to me. There is no agreement number, date, credit limit, address or anything. On the bottom of each page it says 'Mastercard 1996' but I this card was issued to me in 1995 when I opened a business account. I don't think I signed anything at the time anyway. As I remember there was no credit limit on it and I simply paid the full balance each month.

Arleen

It's just one big mess, which is why I've suggested to force the issue and get the ombudsman involved + stop the payment, force them to go to court if they want to collect on this. They cannot report this with CRAs, so up until the court judgement there is little they can do about it.
And if the new company is aggressive then after you give them initial response of "prove the debt or shove it where sun don't shine" report it with ICO and possibly police as harassment.
One important thing to understand that up until the court judgement they have absolutely no recourse against you beside, well, taking you to court. Normally you would worry about CRAs, but this is way past the report date so court is truly their only way

jonesMUFCforever

MerryMavis wrote: »

It says Terms & Conditions at the top. Underneath it says 'This is a copy of your agreement for you to keep'. But there is nothing at all that relates it to me. There is no agreement number, date, credit limit, address or anything. On the bottom of each page it says 'Mastercard 1996' but I this card was issued to me in 1995 when I opened a business account. I don't think I signed anything at the time anyway. As I remember there was no credit limit on it and I simply paid the full balance each month.

If you really dispute the amount owed then tell this to Wescott in writing - they should then refer it back to the original lender.
If your only defence is that they cannot supply you with a signed original agreement then you will lose - they don't have to - just a reconstituted one - which seems they have already done.

MerryMavis

Many thanks for your reply. I have always been conscientious about paying my bills. When I sold my house in 2004 I very deliberately settled all my existing overdrafts, loans and cards etc as I was starting a new business and knew my income would be uncertain for quite some time and that also it would never be of the level it had been before. When they sent me a default notice out of the blue four years later I was taken aback. Although long and tortuous communications took place, during which a number of what can only be described as ‘irregularities ‘ within their account processing systems came to light ( this was at the height of the banking crash of course) in the end it comes down to my word against theirs as I have no way of proving that I paid it. It may even be that somehow it was indeed overlooked, although I genuinely think that is unlikely.

I was told at that time to request a copy of the agreement and although when it was sent it did not seem to me to be anything other than a pro forma document, I am grateful for your explanation that it would not form any sort of defence anyway.

[FONT=&quot]Do you think there is anything I can do? Is it pointless to ask for this to be taken to court? I have very, very little income and zero assets[/FONT]

jonesMUFCforever

MerryMavis wrote: »

Many thanks for your reply. I have always been conscientious about paying my bills. When I sold my house in 2004 I very deliberately settled all my existing overdrafts, loans and cards etc as I was starting a new business and knew my income would be uncertain for quite some time and that also it would never be of the level it had been before. When they sent me a default notice out of the blue four years later I was taken aback. Although long and tortuous communications took place, during which a number of what can only be described as ‘irregularities ‘ within their account processing systems came to light ( this was at the height of the banking crash of course) in the end it comes down to my word against theirs as I have no way of proving that I paid it. It may even be that somehow it was indeed overlooked, although I genuinely think that is unlikely.

I was told at that time to request a copy of the agreement and although when it was sent it did not seem to me to be anything other than a pro forma document, I am grateful for your explanation that it would not form any sort of defence anyway.

[FONT=&quot]Do you think there is anything I can do? Is it pointless to ask for this to be taken to court? I have very, very little income and zero assets[/FONT]

Why take the chance?
If you think you owe the debt make them a sensible offer to repay.
Otherwise carry on paying the £1.
You go to court you may be held responsible for the debt AND costs or it might go in your favour but you may still have to pay your costs.
How much could you afford now to make them an offer?

MerryMavis

Not really anything more than the £1 I have been paying. Over the 8 years since the default notice was issued, RBS have periodically asked for a statement of finances which I have always provided. I was also advised to write to them and ask if they would accept a small lump sum in settlement, which I did in 2010 and again in 2011, but they refused (it was a ridiculously small amout but all I could raise, and even that was with help from friends) and said I should continue to pay the £1 a month. But now they have sold this to Wescot I believe they (Wescot) will be far more aggressive and I am sorely worried.