NHS pensions are bleeding the taxpayer dry

RickyB2000

Maybe the real issue is under reward in the private sector rather than over reward in the public. Maybe the low paid are unable to get a living wage and a living pension without government intervention. Maybe private companies should be made to match the NHS........

System

Jeff - no worries

I do have my own example of what you're saying

I was visiting an elderly relative on a ward, and it occurred to me that he might eat more of his food if he was served his main meal before his puddings, that way he would eat more of his main and his puddings will be hotter. I spoke to the dieticians about it and they agreed, I spoke to the matron and sisters and they agreed, I spoke to a catering manager of the whole site and she agreed, and I spoke to the people who actually do the microwaving of the food and the more open minded ones realised that it wouldn't increase overall cooking time and if anything would save time as the patients would begin their meals sooner.

And they trialed it for about 2 days, then stopped. Why? Because the carers didn't like making 2 trips with meals, and because they didn't like dealing with patients who weren't used to the system asking where their puddings were, and because they were happy to allow those elderly to continue just going straight for their puddings.

It was change and they didn't like it.

Ps
I believe satisfaction does weigh into gp pay, but that then biases them towards prescribing antibiotics willy nilly. Can be appropriate in the right places, where its a front line job

bigadaj

GPs are a particular issue with the weird combination of being self employed and or employed by the NHS.

It seems odd to e with so many accusations of privatisation levied that GPs employment is such a halfway house and obfuscation.

System

I think since every NHS employee is a private individual you could say its fully privatised, effectively

However paying for the healthcare is another matter

MoneyWorry

My boyfriend is an NHS consultant and yes if he retired tomorrow would receive over £50K per annum so the taxpayer's alliance would no doubt hate him. People assume so much about doctor's pay and pensions most of it wrong. He works 4 days in an NHS hospital and 1 day in a private hospital and he is paid on that basis. He does not treat private patients whilst he should be treating NHS ones. Interestingly, a large number of patients he sees in the private hospital come there through the NHS. The NHS uses private hospitals when they themselves are totally overloaded.

justme111

Paying health professionals by "customer satisfaction " is a bad idea. It reduces healthcare to escort level(not to be derogatory to escort, just to point that a trade where personal satisfaction is the aim can not be remunerated in the same way as something where the end aim is different. People are very qualified to tell what pleases them but they have less knowledge about how well or appropriately stents are placed. )Doctors would be paid depending on their bedside manner.
Re obfuscation - NHS system is woefully inadequate. Do you know that GPs have 7 (!) minutes per patient's appointment? No wonder they are emigrating, requalifying as botox administrators and retiring despite being well paid. Studies shown that job satisfaction rates higher than wages in people's minds. GPs are extremely overworked , demoralised and quashed by beurocracy as government pretends it does something to improve healthcare by increasing mindless redtape . Theoretically they could voluntarily reduce their income by half for example so that other half goes to allow them longer with patients. But it would be difficult to implement and access would drop by half. And it still would not be enough.. They could volunteer to work for minimal wage or for free even. Would you ? I guess not. Government together with health professionals can not admit NHS is not "in danger of being inadequate ", it already is. Why can not doctors say it you ask ? Because it would be the end of one's career - to admit one does deliver very suboptimal care. Hence obfuscation..

BobQ

justme111 wrote: »

Staff are not "NHS trained".
In your frustration you barking at the wrong tree. If there was not private operations done at NHS hospitals it would not made waiting lists shorter.
It is not emigration of doctors that causes waiting lists. Both emigration and waiting lists are consequences of NHS being non viable as it is.

Fair point NHS trained is wrong these days. But their training is subsidised by the taxpayer and their work experience gained from working in the NHS.

As to the rest of your comment I see no evidence to support these statements. Any heathcare system is viable if it has the funds be it tax funded or insurance funded.

This was about pensions. My point is that you need to compare staff doing the same jobs in public and private sector if you want to say one is paid more than the other.

justme111

Suppose universities are subsidised although I do not know the numbers. So how long do you suggest they have to stay here working in the nhs for ? 2 years , 5 years? Do you think it will solve the issue of staffing ? If not - should they stay forever ? Why not to have brilliant idea and pass the law that would require them working for free for certain time or forever? Do you think it will help ? Those people are replaced by immigrants , I think UK imports more healthcare workers than it loses to emigration , I do not think emigration is the issue. Apart from emotional one with people feeling bitter they can not have pay and work conditions here and have to leave looking for them.
Re evidence - with present taxation what is delivered is a fraction of universal , superb quality and free at the point of delivery healthcare. Suppose I say 10%. Do you think increasing taxes 10 times is viable ?
There are certain things that are not possible in this world due to laws of physics for example. One can not levitate. Even my garage has a poster on the wall :"there are 3 types of work : cheap, good, quick". We can do only 2 at a time. How do you think funding is possible for universal , free, good healthcare ? By magic?
Re pensions - I will leave others to discuss it. In any case there is no point in arguing who has the shorter straw , it proves nothing. Would be difficult to do comparison as well as those good pensions are for state funded occupations which by definition do not have counterparts in private sector

uk1

BobQ wrote: »

Fair point NHS trained is wrong these days. But their training is subsidised by the taxpayer and their work experience gained from working in the NHS.

As to the rest of your comment I see no evidence to support these statements. Any heathcare system is viable if it has the funds be it tax funded or insurance funded.

This was about pensions. My point is that you need to compare staff doing the same jobs in public and private sector if you want to say one is paid more than the other.

Bob,

With respect to your final point I completely agree if what you are doing is an accurate and proper and fair comparative analysis, but I think what we are discussing is simply public sentiment. It is about perceptions of fairness irrespective of detail.

It may be totally unfair to feel that the overall package generally in the public sector is too generous, but in the end it is public sentiment that drives politics and not detailed facts.

Jeff

RickyB2000

uk1 wrote: »

Bob,

With respect to your final point I completely agree if what you are doing is an accurate and proper and fair comparative analysis, but I think what we are discussing is simply public sentiment. It is about perceptions of fairness irrespective of detail.

It may be totally unfair to feel that the overall package generally in the public sector is too generous, but in the end it is public sentiment that drives politics and not detailed facts.

Jeff

Perhaps this sentiment should be directed towards the private companies and asking whether they really can't afford to match public sector pensions. Maybe people should have put up a bit more fight than roll over and let their scheme be closed. Of course, a ressesion is the perfect time to remove benefit based on cost when everyone is in fear of their jobs........

To much of a race to the bottom in my view! Once gone they will never come back.