Multiple Notice To Keeper recieved

m1lky12

Hi guys, apologies if this doesn't require a new thread but have seen so much information flying around about private car park fines and how to fight them I thought it was best to get some advice directly about my situation.

I've recently received 4 seperate Notice To Keeper documents from National Parking Control/Cascade Ltd asking for a £100 payment for parking without displaying a ticket in a private car park. All NTK were received on 26/05/2016 and the PCN issue dates are: 29/2, 7/3, 22/3 and 25/4.

I've read conflicting information about driver liability and my current understanding is that because these dates all fall between the 28-56 day mark that keeper liability isn't an issue for them trying to persue this and it's not as easy as me writing and saying that I wasn't the driver at the time.

If this is the case then it is also my understanding that because the Notice To Driver left on the windscreen lacked any specific information, no time, date, reg number, period of parking, or actual amount I'd be fined, literally just a generic piece of paper saying I could be fined. And because of this the registered keeper cannot be held into account. My issue is whether I claimed this to the company they may see it as an omission of guilt.

Once again sorry if this didn't need a new thread!

Thanks.

Castle

m1lky12 wrote: »

I've recently received 4 seperate Notice To Keeper documents from National Parking Control/Cascade Ltd asking for a £100 payment for parking without displaying a ticket in a private car park. All NTK were received on 26/05/2016 and the PCN issue dates are: 29/2, 7/3, 22/3 and 25/4.

I think you need to check your maths; I make it 87 days, 80 days and 65 days for the first three PCN's, all outside the 56 day limit even if they did put a ticket on your vehicle.

pappa_golf

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5470311


seems he cannot count

m1lky12

Ah my bad! No idea where my head was there. So I'll send an email/letter stating this is outside the time period to claim keeper liability for the first three occasions.

Johno100

pappa_golf wrote: »

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5470311

seems he cannot count

Different OP or are on about Mr. Busch/Buksh?

Anyway seems Cascade Financial Ltd/National Parking Control are playing fast and loose with the POFA requirements to enforce keeper liability.

Guys_Dad

Are these NtKs? And if so, what are the dates on the NtKs?

m1lky12

All 4 Notice to Keepers were dated 26/5/16

Guys_Dad

m1lky12 wrote: »

All 4 Notice to Keepers were dated 26/5/16

Dated and received on 26/5/16? If so, then the out of time point is valid for the first 3 as you say.

Umkomaas

Cascade/NPC are IPC AOS members so the only way they use PoFA is to confuse the uninitiated and naive. When push comes to shove they will say they are making the presumption that the keeper was the driver. The IAS will inevitably back them, quoting Elliott -v- Loake, and will therefore pay no heed to the PPC not meeting PoFA requirements.

So it's an initial appeal for each NtK separately as per the newbies sticky, making the point that they fail PoFA on the timing front, and (I expect) a number of other fronts. All likely to be turned down by the PPC.

Make your own mind up then about appealing to the IAS, but if you do and more than likely lose, you'll be handing a 'victory' to the PPC on multi tickets which might persuade them (with Gladstone encouragement no doubt) to pursue this further to court.

You could notify your intent to appeal to the IAS, which will give you a preview of the case(s) the PPC will present to the IAS. Maybe they won't have a clue about how to present their case, and won't bother, handing you a default victory. But you do need to do some reading on this approach to give you an understanding on how it works.

Cascade/NPC have never previously been anywhere near a court room, and normally wouldn't chance their arm - but £400s worth of tickets might get them excited.

http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/Cascade_Financial.html

But realistically I don't think they would and you then just need to brace yourself to ride out the powerless debt collector letter chain (see newbies sticky post #4).

m1lky12

Umkomaas wrote: »

Cascade/NPC are IPC AOS members so the only way they use PoFA is to confuse the uninitiated and naive. When push comes to shove they will say they are making the presumption that the keeper was the driver. The IAS will inevitably back them, quoting Elliott -v- Loake, and will therefore pay no heed to the PPC not meeting PoFA requirements.

So it's an initial appeal for each NtK separately as per the newbies sticky, making the point that they fail PoFA on the timing front, and (I expect) a number of other fronts. All likely to be turned down by the PPC.

Make your own mind up then about appealing to the IAS, but if you do and more than likely lose, you'll be handing a 'victory' to the PPC on multi tickets which might persuade them (with Gladstone encouragement no doubt) to pursue this further to court.

You could notify your intent to appeal to the IAS, which will give you a preview of the case(s) the PPC will present to the IAS. Maybe they won't have a clue about how to present their case, and won't bother, handing you a default victory. But you do need to do some reading on this approach to give you an understanding on how it works.

Cascade/NPC have never previously been anywhere near a court room, and normally wouldn't chance their arm - but £400s worth of tickets might get them excited.

But realistically I don't think they would and you then just need to brace yourself to ride out the powerless debt collector letter chain (see newbies sticky post #4).

Thanks that's a big help! Though surely they would have to treat each NTK on its own merits rather than totting them up as such? And I'm right in thinking that the IAS aren't particularly impartial in these cases, or am I thinking of a different appeals group? I do also plan on writing to the company who employ NPC as the registered keeper with my dissatisfaction of there choice of parking enforcer and as a regular customer whose money they will no longer be receiving to see if this convinces them to cancel this charge.

Either way I shall follow your advice and keep this thread updated if needs be on the first three NTKs.

In regards to the 4th NTK, which falls within the 56 days, is it wise to appeal on the grounds that the NTD left on the car, with its lack of information as previously stated in my original post, means that the registered keeper cannot by held into account, and in terms of the PoFA, they don't have a case. Or will this be taken as proof that I was the driver as I'll have admitted to seeing the NTD (obviously all communications and appeals will be written in 3rd person and I will be speaking as only the registered owner of the vehicle) and could influence the other 3 NTKs?

I should also note that on this 4th occasion (25/4) a vehicle ban notice was left on the car which did include the date/vehicle reg/fine amount. Does this have any bearing on the parking fines issued by NPC? It goes without saying that my car hasn't entered the property since.

Thanks again!

Umkomaas

They should deal with each ticket in its own right, and you should do the same - appeal each one individually. Where they would be likely to put them all together is if they were to pursue this to court (which is doubtful, but with multi tickets it becomes a more viable opportunity as the cost of doing so would be virtually the same as pursuing just one).

You've read things right, the IAS is far from impartial. Fewer than 20% of appeals are upheld whereas with POPLA (which is not open to you) a better than 50% success rate is reported.

In terms of your 4th NtK - it really doesn't matter on what basis you appeal to the PPC, the outcome is almost inevitable, in fact I'd suggest they will hardly read it - I've seen very few IPC PPCs uphold initial appeals.

But you can put your marker down on this as PoFA requires that the details of the NtK must be the same as those on the NtD. The fact that you have the NtD in your hand doesn't implicate you as the driver. The driver could have handed you the NtD to deal with when he/she handed the car back to you after your kind loan to them!