Brexit and Online Trading

RFW

There was a thread a while back about this but thought it worth starting another.

I'm not impartial, I'm strongly for remain but get the arguments for leaving and know leaving would positively impact some.

Anyway how do you think leaving would affect us Amazon and Ebay traders?

To start with I sell a fair amount to Germany plus a bit to France, Spain and Italy. There's possible impact on post prices as currently EU post rates are less than non EU rates for Europe. There are also implications on changes to customs rules. Will we need to add customs labels for all countries and would exports to EU states then be subject to tax when they arrive? That would also apply the other way so we would be paying duty on all EU arrivals.

I use a franking machine that is run by a German company (Francotyp Postalia). I regularly get deliveries from DPD, a German company. I assume both of those would continue trading here but would there be a negative impact?

There's also a more general aspect of Amazon and Ebay being based in Europe, with offices in Ireland and Luxembourg. No idea if leaving would be good or bad for that or make no difference.

I'd rather keep this (not that I'd have any say) to Ebay and Amazon. As far as trading on there are concerned are there any good arguments for leaving?

I'd like to think we could have a civilised discussion on here rather than a Boris/Cameron type debate where we all get enraged and warn of the oncoming death to humanity if we cote one way or the other.

usefulmale

Personally, I am a firm leaver. I think the only thing that will change, at least in the short to medium term is that you will need to put a customs sticker on your package, like you would sending to the USA.

The postage issue you mention is a bit of a red herring. That is nothing to do with the EU. Russia is charged at EU rates and they certainly are not in the EU.

The companies you mention for your franking machine will continue to trade here as long as they are making a profit. Just the same as all the companies trading here from outside the EU do.

For the likes of me and you, nothing would change, whatever the result. What I would be wary of, should we remain, is evermore onerous and pointless hoops to jump through, dictated by unelected bureaucrats with zero experience of running a business.

RFW

usefulmale wrote: »

For the likes of me and you, nothing would change, whatever the result. What I would be wary of, should we remain, is evermore onerous and pointless hoops to jump through, dictated by unelected bureaucrats with zero experience of running a business.

Sadly we're stuck with unelected bureaucrats whichever way we go. Leaving would give us another load of quangos to oversee changes. I doubt we'd be electing them.

I'm more worried that we'll end up with Boris Johnson as PM if we end up leaving. I certainly never voted for him and neither did over 95% of the electorate.

I do agree that not much would change for most of us, I'm happier having checks on our government from the rest of the EU and despite what we read a lot is elected and accountable, often more so than our British parliament (especially if you consider the House of Lords)

mrcol1000

It is most likely that even if we were not part of EU, some kind of agreement would be made so that there would be still duty exempt trade between us and the EU. We buy a lot from the EU and we sell a lot of specialised stuff to the EU.

Whatever either side of the argument say, big business will make sure they do not lose out if UK votes to leave the EU.

antrobus

mrcol1000 wrote: »

It is most likely that even if we were not part of EU, some kind of agreement would be made so that there would be still duty exempt trade between us and the EU. We buy a lot from the EU and we sell a lot of specialised stuff to the EU. ....

It's not duty that would be the issue. VAT would be the issue. And the fees that people have to pay to postal carriers for collecting that VAT.

Marktheshark

RFW wrote: »

Sand despite what we read a lot is elected and accountable, often more so than our British parliament (especially if you consider the House of Lords)

The ones who make on average 27 new laws a day are not elected and can never be voted out.
They make the laws you must obey, they decide how much you can be paid and how much tax you pay and who can live in your country.
333,000 last year alone.

Not one is elected by anyone.

If thats not enough on its own, then nothing is going to get through.

RFW

Marktheshark wrote: »

The ones who make on average 27 new laws a day are not elected and can never be voted out.
They make the laws you must obey, they decide how much you can be paid and how much tax you pay and who can live in your country.
333,000 last year alone.

Not one is elected by anyone.

The European Commission make laws that then get looked at and voted on by the Council Of Ministers (representing member state governments) and the European Parliament (voted by the people in the member states). The European Commission are unelected but they can and have been removed from their jobs. They are appointed by member state governments, it's not as though they are randomly selected.
EU laws are subject to way more scrutiny than any laws passed in Parliament.
A bit more info here and here.

I struggle with people's problems with unelected officials, the people we have returned to the European Parliament have, in several cases, never bothered attending. Also, I don't know the percentage of elected people working in government in the UK but I know it's way below half.
We have unelected officials wherever we turn and those that are elected are invariably elected by less than half the electorate. It's something like 75% of the population who never voted for our current government at the last election.

Taking it back to trading the VAT points are interesting, it is likely that it would stay the same short term. It's also possible that other member states would get annoyed that we were getting privileges that we were no longer paying for. If we've got those wonderful diplomats Michael Gove and Boris Johnson doing the negotiating then anything could happen.

RFW

antrobus wrote: »

It's not duty that would be the issue. VAT would be the issue. And the fees that people have to pay to postal carriers for collecting that VAT.

I often get them mixed up. I know what they are when I'm paying them but they just go in the same tax box so I'll often say one when I mean the other.

Art_Vandelay_2

I know several sole traders & small businesses who have been essentially put out of business by the EU's revamping of UK VAT regulations.

In certain industries now, if you do business with another EU country, you cannot charge VAT in the UK, the VAT element has to be redistributed to Europe. There is also a whole raft of rules and regulations the EU have bought in:
A trader will be forced to go VAT registered (completely regardless of turnover) & therefore have to add 20% to their prices automatically and submit regular VAT returns.
The trader is required to obtain more than one piece of confidential information from their customer, and take steps to verify exactly what country the buyer is in. A Paypal email, for example, is not good enough in many circumstances. It has been suggested that a trader calls their customers and ask for their date of birth or other confidential information (!!)
Also as the trader will now possess confidential information about a customer, the trader is forced to register & fund the necessary fees under the data protection act; they also have to retain the information securely for over 10 years in a secure location.

Although relatively new, these regulations have forced huge numbers of people out of business in the UK already, including several I know of firsthand - all the above extra costs & burden simply has made business unsustainable. Particularly if you were only turning over a couple of thousand pounds a year in the first place.

At the moment, these regulations only apply under certain circumstances in restricted industries. But consider the wider plan - the EU have clearly stated they want the UK's VAT income redistributed across Europe. No question whatsoever, they will bring in wholesale changes to British businesses, amongst nearly every industry. This will absolutely decimate sole traders and small businesses everywhere. Big companies will be OK, of course. They will just absorb the extra admin and pass on the price rises on to....guess who?!

As a supporter of sole traders & small businesses in this country, I for one will be voting Out.

RFW

Art_Vandelay wrote: »

Although relatively new, these regulations have forced huge numbers of people out of business in the UK already, including several I know of firsthand - all the above extra costs & burden simply has made business unsustainable. Particularly if you were only turning over a couple of thousand pounds a year in the first place.

At the moment, these regulations only apply under certain circumstances in restricted industries.

Which industries are these "huge numbers of .. businesses" in?
I've not noticed any news about them, can you share some links please?

RFW

Art_Vandelay wrote: »

I know several sole traders & small businesses who have been essentially put out of business by the EU's revamping of UK VAT regulations.

I'm assuming you were referring to VAT MOSS. There's some stuff here about it. I'm not sure its impact was as destructive as you say.

It's also a possible side effect of exit that the VAT threshold would need to be lowered, certainly not a good thing for micro businesses.

Although as I said earlier no one knows one way or another.

My main thinking is that we currently have easy access to 27 countries that could (and likely would) be made harder after exit.